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Old 10-12-2013, 04:58   #61
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Everything we've been told so far sounds very much like

Lead crystal storage cells and storage devices made therefrom - Solargen Electronics, Ltd.

Title:Lead crystal storage cells and storage devices made therefrom
United States Patent 4143216




Abstract:
A unique storge cell is provided in which the active mass on the positive electrode is a mixture of crystalline and an effective amount of polycrystalline lead superoxide (PbO2). These cells are characterized, inter alia, by their remarkably lower internal resistance, higher activity, better charging and discharging characteristics, lower sulphatization, higher storage capacity and greater ability to draw larger amounts of electric current in a considerably shorter period of time as compared with conventional lead-acid storage cells. Storage devices (e.g., a battery) made from such cells also exhibit superior performance characterstics as compared with storage devices made from the conventional lead-acid cells. Batteries made from such cells will be referred to as "lead-crystal" batteries.Also, several methods are described for making the polycrystalline and crystalline lead superoxide (active mass).



Inventors:
Hradcovsky, Rudolf R. (Long Beach, NY)
Kozak, Otto R. (Long Beach, NY)


Application Number:05/887359

Publication Date:03/06/1979

Filing Date: 03/16/1978

Solargen Electronics, Ltd. (New York, NY)
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:11   #62
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

So Betta doesn't hold the patent?
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:15   #63
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

They may well have bought the patent from the original holders sometime in the last 34 years that the technology has been available.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:58   #64
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

I guess some of the claims still have me wondering. Betta claims it was founded in:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Betta Battery
Number of employees: 210 Johan Hattingh, CEO - special focus Africa Number of countries present: 16 Jacques Addinall, CTO - special focus Asia Founded in 2009 Eric van Honk, CCO - special focus Emea Location offices & plant:
- Johannesburg (RSA),
- Shanghai (CHN),
- Amsterdam (NLD)
Betta batteries seem to sport the logo of a Chinese company that claims to have been producing lead crystal batteries since 2003? Betta was founded in 2009....???? The chicken / egg stuff has me confused...???

Read The EGE Battery Company Profile Here

Quotes from EGE:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGE Battery
Zhejiang EGE Battery Manufacturing Co., Ltd. is a high-tech enterprise doing research, development, production and sales of lead-crystal battery products.

It was founded in 2003 and located in the suburb of Huzhou City, Zhejiang Province China.

At present, by virtue of its many excellent properties, our lead-crystal battery has been selling in the majority of provinces and municipalities in China, and has successfully entered the South-East Asian, African, Middle East, European and other international markets. It is widely used in solar and wind energy systems as storage, UPS power supply, power plants backup systems, electric trains, electric vehicles, electric scooters and other fields.

These new environmentally friendly products are rapidly moving in to all areas of the consumer’s life, and have been accepted by an increasing number of institutions and individuals.

Images:

Note The EGE Battery Corporate Logo - Upper Left;



An EGE Lead Crystal Battery Proudly Wearing The EGE Corporate Logo;

This Betta Battery logo even says EGE;



A Betta Battery (Note The EGE Looking Logo - Lower Left)


Another Betta Battery Wearing an EGE Looking Logo -Lower Left




How about a google seach of "Lead Crystal Battery"

Is it me or do the claims seem a tad bit confusing given what is easily available to see publicly...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
Hi Maine Sail - let me see if we can answer some of these questions for you.

Question: Who patented this technology? The patent belongs to Betta

Question: Who currently owns the patent to this technology? Betta

Question: Who is currently licensing this technology for production? Only Betta

Question: Did Betta Battery INVENT, PATENT and do they physically MANUFACTURE this technology? They did and they are the only company using the technology (electrolyte)

Question: Does Betta Battery own this technology? Yes they do

Phil
Why would a Betta Battery wear the logo of a company from China founded in 2003 if Betta "invented", "patented", "owns the patent" and "are the "only company using the technology (electrolyte)." yet was founded 6 years later?

Question: How is an EGE Lead Crystal Battery different from a Bette Battery lead crystal battery when the Betta Battery seems to wear an EGE Battery logo printed on the case...? Honest question...

I have to say I am confused by all this.....????

Phil,

I am not trying to be a jerk, honestly, but in the marine industry we have been lied to and mislead many times by battery manufacturers. You learn to grow a thick skin and do a lot more research when thousands of dollars of "new technology" batteries start going tits up in two years (re: early adopters of AGM in marine applications)....

Hopefully some of the "marketing holes" I have opened up here will be addressed by Betta so that they can be shooting a little more straight and do not appear to come off as misleading.... For example if Li does not "matter" then I would suggest REMOVING THE MISLEADING CLAIMS. Keeping them there will just open you up to severe scrutiny in the public domain....... Your discharge curves, as published, do not compare with LiFePO4 yet the claim is LC does better with high current discharges...? Your own curves do not support this....


Despite all the marketing gobeldey-gook, I would like to get my hands on an LCB. How do I do this in the USA??? Even if they do only slightly better than a typical AGM, I suspect they would do a lot better, it seems like a great improvement I am willing to try.
I have a customer who would love to be a guinea pig....


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Old 10-12-2013, 10:51   #65
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post

Despite all the marketing gobeldey-gook, I would like to get my hands on an LCB. How do I do this in the USA??? Even if they do only slightly better than a typical AGM, I suspect they would do a lot better, it seems like a great improvement I am willing to try.
I have a customer who would love to be a guinea pig....


I could be a tester, whenever our oldest (8 seasons) AGM bank gives up.

I want to change that bank from 3xG31s (Odyssey PC2150s) to 4x 6v golf cart batteries on that bank, at the same time. Haven't tried to puzzle out the LC batteries that would be roughly equivalent to T-105s (or the slightly taller versions)...

-Chris
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:52   #66
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
Wow, seems I have stirred up some debate here!

As for long term testing, you are in fact wrong. There are batteries that have been in test and in use since prior to 2009, some of which we are currently having inspected by BT in the UK.
OK quote the results... from what I have seen of the "classified" results that you referred to one test involving 8 cycles which doesn't seem to be very "long term", and the other is "ongoing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
We do compare against AGM and VRLA - don't be confused by terminology. They are one and the same thing in reality, AGM just refers to Absorbed Glass Mat, and VRLA means Valve Regulated Lead Acid. Both the same.....real interesting debate this one.
This is where you show your ignorance. VRLA AGMs and VRLA GELs are very different! That is why you should be making comparisons with AGMs , not Gels.

I'm glad you are enjoying this debate - please keep your comments coming.
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Old 10-12-2013, 13:02   #67
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Betta Batteries DON"T hold the patents and didn't develop the technology according to this:

Betta Batteries Nigeria

"As a result of the Betta Lights’ commitment regarding exhaustive testing, EGE, the only manufacturer in the world of the lead crystal batteries and holder of the international patents, partnered with Betta Lights and Betta Batteries was formed to exclusively market and sell the lead crystal batteries to the international market. "

The real developers: Welcome To Zhejiang EGE Battery Manufacturing Co., Ltd.
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Old 10-12-2013, 13:21   #68
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Betta Batteries DON"T hold the patents and didn't develop the technology according to this:

Betta Batteries Nigeria

"As a result of the Betta Lights’ commitment regarding exhaustive testing, EGE, the only manufacturer in the world of the lead crystal batteries and holder of the international patents, partnered with Betta Lights and Betta Batteries was formed to exclusively market and sell the lead crystal batteries to the international market. "

The real developers: Welcome To Zhejiang EGE Battery Manufacturing Co., Ltd.
Ah so I am not crazy..... Seems that EGE is perhaps licensing the technology to other companies too and this is why Betta wears the EGE logo...?
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Old 10-12-2013, 13:32   #69
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Phil,

Perhaps, in light of the above information, can you clarify some of these answers / statements.....?


Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
Hi Maine Sail - let me see if we can answer some of these questions for you.



Question: Who patented this technology? The patent belongs to Betta

Question: Who currently owns the patent to this technology? Betta

Question: Who is currently licensing this technology for production? Only Betta

Question: Did Betta Battery INVENT, PATENT and do they physically MANUFACTURE this technology? They did and they are the only company using the technology (electrolyte)

Question: Does Betta Battery own this technology? Yes they do



Phil
It sure seems as if Betta is licensing FROM EGE for distribution but that EGE was the inventor and it is the patent holder. Perhaps I'm and just being thick here but things don't appear what they are claimed to be...? Am I crazy? Perhaps it is that my reading comprehension is failing me....
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:42   #70
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Everything we've been told so far sounds very much like

Lead crystal storage cells and storage devices made therefrom - Solargen Electronics, Ltd.

Title:Lead crystal storage cells and storage devices made therefrom
United States Patent 4143216




Abstract:
A unique storge cell is provided in which the active mass on the positive electrode is a mixture of crystalline and an effective amount of polycrystalline lead superoxide (PbO2). These cells are characterized, inter alia, by their remarkably lower internal resistance, higher activity, better charging and discharging characteristics, lower sulphatization, higher storage capacity and greater ability to draw larger amounts of electric current in a considerably shorter period of time as compared with conventional lead-acid storage cells. Storage devices (e.g., a battery) made from such cells also exhibit superior performance characterstics as compared with storage devices made from the conventional lead-acid cells. Batteries made from such cells will be referred to as "lead-crystal" batteries.Also, several methods are described for making the polycrystalline and crystalline lead superoxide (active mass).



Inventors:
Hradcovsky, Rudolf R. (Long Beach, NY)
Kozak, Otto R. (Long Beach, NY)


Application Number:05/887359

Publication Date:03/06/1979

Filing Date: 03/16/1978

Solargen Electronics, Ltd. (New York, NY)

To my knowledge as it stands, there are 31 known examples of companies marketing Lead Crystal batteries currently in Asia alone. The earliest known example of the Lead Crystal name being used was 1973 when an Indian company used it.

What is being discussed by me, is the only version of actual Lead Crystal battery available on the market today - there is no other versions of this battery anywhere simply because the patent for the electrolyte is protected and preserved. In China alone, Lexus cars are copied by around a dozen different companies who make vehicles and then call them Lexus. Does that mean they are all the same? Does that mean they are all real Lexus vehicles with the same quality of build, the same engines and parts, the same technology included? obviously not. Hoovers are machines designed to collect dust and dirt off carpets, so are those items made by Dyson, but they are generically called hoovers like all the other competition - but they are not the same.

Marketing material - Betta know that there is a significant amount of old and contradictory stuff available on the net, and they are trying to change that as previously stated. It will take a little time but there is a whole plethora of new information which is both accurate and up to date. Also remember that if you look on either the old or new website not al of the product data is uploaded, certainly on the new site, and this will happen as time moves on.

Someone else said in a post, what does it matter about patents as long as the product does what it claims and they were right. It does make me laugh though when everyone and their dog starts looking out for information and comes up with what they think is the right answer and it clearly is not. Just look at the post above, not even the same chemical make-up, definitely not invented by two guys in Long Beach New York, and certainly not this product.

As for testing Maine Sail, lets see how we can work this out. Send me a private message with your personal contact details and I will come back to you and we will sort out a way of doing this - proof is always in the using and I am happy to do that. As I will be sending batteries from the UK ad there will be import duties and freight etc there will be a cost, but I will discuss that with you in private.

As for EGE, let me ask that question directly to Betta and post their reply when I get it.
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:36   #71
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Here is the reply I just received about EGE. Let me say just one more time before anyone else suggests anything to the contrary, NOBODY OTHER THAN BETTA MAKES OUR LEAD CRSTAL BATTERIES -not in the US, not in China or anywhere, and any others that use the name are not selling what Betta are selling.

Hi Phil

EGE is as you know the name of our factory, Everlasting Green Energy, and is the ONLY factory producing our Lead Crystal batteries anywhere - why did you ask?
E
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:49   #72
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I think Phil is to congradulated for coming into this " den of vipers ". He has attempted to answer all questions put to him.

Keep up the good work Phil

Dave
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:07   #73
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
as for being a salesman of any kind, let alone a snakeoil one (which I don't understand by the way) is rather off the mark.

Just to clarify the reference:

In the distant past, in western US, unscrupulous salesmen would travel from town to town, in covered wagons, selling a liquid that they claimed to be snake oil. They would make all sorts of fantastic claims concerning the beneficial effects of using this product, in hopes of selling it to uninformed individuals who lived in isolated areas. One of the classic ruses was to have someone hobble up to the salesman's wagon using a crutch or cane, then drink the concoction, then start to walk normally a few seconds or minutes later.

In some ways, they were the gypsies of the old west. They were generally considered to be grifters, con men & thieves.

I am not claiming that this description does or does not fit in this case. I am only supplying this information to clarify the reference.

People here would very much like to find a new type of battery that performs well & does not spill acid when turned on it's side. Unfortunately, previous false claims & exaggerations from other people in the past have left this group a bit skeptical, so proof will need to accompany desirable claims.
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:12   #74
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

It would be far more enlightening if we stick to the facts and leave the name calling for another thread. I am very interested to learn about the new tech. as well as interested if the new tech. doesn't measure up.
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:15   #75
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Re: Lead Crystal Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil dunn View Post
Someone else said in a post, what does it matter about patents as long as the product does what it claims and they were right. It does make me laugh though when everyone and their dog starts looking out for information and comes up with what they think is the right answer and it clearly is not. Just look at the post above, not even the same chemical make-up, definitely not invented by two guys in Long Beach New York, and certainly not this product.
People here are looking for information. You were asked what your patent number was so that people could look it up & find information. You declined to supply a patent number, so somebody went to look up what he could find without the benefit of a number. It is not obvious to me that what he found is not the same as what you have, since we do not really know what you have. If you would care to supply the information that was asked for, it would eliminate this issue. If you prefer not to supply this information, then people will continue to second guess you. That choice is yours to make.
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