Lead Crystal Batteries

[senormechanico]

They can have my LiFePo4's when they pry them from my cold, dead hands...

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

They can have my LiFePo4's when they pry them from my cold, dead hands...

That's what people who had gels said 10 years ago.....

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Opie91

That's what people who had gels said 10 years ago.....

And many of my customers have GEL banks that are past 10 years. One GEL bank is going to be entering its 15th year come April... Properly charged GEL batteries have proven to be one heck of a robust battery....

The biggest problems I have seen with GEL's have been from installers or owners who can't read the charging specifications/instructions....

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

And many of my customers have GEL banks that are past 10 years. One GEL bank is going to be entering its 15th year come April... Properly charged GEL batteries have proven to be one heck of a robust battery....

The biggest problems I have seen with GEL's have been from installers or owners who can't read the charging specifications/instructions....

Not saying that gels are bad, just making a point that technology changes. Maybe lead crystal will work out.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Opie91

Not saying that gels are bad, just making a point that technology changes. Maybe lead crystal will work out.

I can only hope it does! We do need better battery technology.

Having been burned BADLY by the lies and misinformation fed to us by AGM makers early on (they don't sulfate, cycle to 80% DOD without issue, 1500 cycles etc. etc., ) I come at all battery claims that lack any sort of good science or solid data with some skepticism. I am currently cycle testing LiFePO4 and come at that with the same level of skepticism. I want to see a technology does what the manufacturer claims, IN THE REAL WORLD not in some white coat laboratory....

The fact that the technology is not new, the manufacturer does not even know the Peukert, an affiliate claims Peukert 1.0, there are lots of them coming out of China all with the same logo (EGE Battery?), all of them seem to use the same data/specs, they are AGM, they are not AGM etc. etc.. It does seem as if we could use some clarification on the what, who, how and why???

The snake oil flag gets raised when marketing makes bold claims that can be easily shown as untrue...

Trojan
Concorde
Lifeline
Odyssey/Enersys
Rolls
Deka
Johnson Controls
Superior Battery
Crown Battery
US Battery
East Penn


What do all these battery manufacturers have in common? They can ALL tell you the Peukert exponent of the battery you are buying.... Heck anyone can calculate a rough Peukert right out of the discharge curves but this is the answer one gets when asking about the Peukert exponent?

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

I sent an email to Axcom with a dozen questions asking for more info. They forwarded it to the Battery Manufacturers Betta Batteries. I forwarded the same questions to Betta Batteries and the MD Europe responded with some answers, and saying he had had my questions also from Axcom. He was forwarding them to the engineers but did give some answers.

My Q.7 What is their Peukerts constant?

We do not know, hard to establish given the specific dynamics of our battery. Needs substantial amount of testing values before it can be established.

My Q. 11. Do they Sulfate? If they are used for say 12 months from 50-80% by alternator charging alone and never get back to 100% will this impact on their life-cycles? This is in fact my most important question. If they can do this they are a magic battery – yet you don’t talk about this in any of your literature.

Sulfation (and corrosion also) are both phenomenon that are a result of the use of sulph. acid. Our batteries have substantially less problems with both because we use far less acid. Crystals also ensure an evenly distribution of acid on the plates. They can be used in a partial state of charge, they just need an equalization charge every 6 months min.

I have also pointed him to this thread!!!!! Lets hope we get some more answers.

BTW that sulfation explanation is very similar as to what was fed to us many years ago when AGM's hit the marine market.....

I am hopeful that the questions raised here can be answered honestly, and at a minimum, the answers don't violate Ohm's law....

Question: Who patented this technology?

Question: Who currently owns the patent to this technology?

Question: Who is currently licensing this technology for production?

Question: Did Betta Battery INVENT, PATENT and do they physically MANUFACTURE this technology?

Question: Does Betta Battery own this technology?

Question: Is there any long term data from any reputable third party that supports at least 1/2 of the claimed cycles?

Question: Which Li technology are the marketing materials comparing to?

Using the term "Lithium" or "Li" is a tad misleading as there are MANY, MANY different types of Li technology all with varying performance levels... I would like to know specifically which of the Li technolgies they are comparing against in the marketing materials....


I will say it again, I HOPE, this technology is what they say it is! Currently I am left with more questions than answers...

[phil dunn]

Hi Maine Sail - let me see if we can answer some of these questions for you.

am hopeful that the questions raised here can be answered honestly, and at a minimum, the answers don't violate Ohm's law.... well they don't do that but they do some things in a way not seen before, that is down to progress in technology!

Question: Who patented this technology? The patent belongs to Betta

Question: Who currently owns the patent to this technology? Betta

Question: Who is currently licensing this technology for production? Only Betta

Question: Did Betta Battery INVENT, PATENT and do they physically MANUFACTURE this technology? They did and they are the only company using the technology (electrolyte)

Question: Does Betta Battery own this technology? Yes they do

Question: Is there any long term data from any reputable third party that supports at least 1/2 of the claimed cycles? Yes, Siemens Nokia Systems, mobility system companies, golf companies who all cycle their products much more than other industries, as well as the IEC and the TUE (Technical University of Eindhoven, Holland, one of the foremost test houses in the world for this type of technology).

Question: Which Li technology are the marketing materials comparing to? None. This battery is not competing against Li Tech - they are competing against Lead Acid batteries in their various forms.

Please understand Maine Sail, although I am working for a distributor in the UK we sell many different products for many very different applications. Figures for the Peukerts etc have ben provided and we are happy to work with anyone who wants to independently test these products - be that you or anyone else. If there is a sensible and cost effective way to get them to the US then fine, failing that if you can recommend a suitable UK tester I will contact them and let them do it publicly. No marketing or sales wish wash is worth anything unless in reality the product performs, so over to the forum - come up with a UK body who can test and lets get it done.
Phil

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by phil dunn

Hi Maine Sail - let me see if we can answer some of these questions for you.......

Thanks Phil for trying to answer these Maine Sail questions, but it would appear that some of the questions you don't understand.

I'm afraid many of us are probably going to give you more of a hard time, because there are still many unanswered questions on this thread - all directed at you.

Maine Sail asked a direct question about Lithium:

Originally Posted by phil dunn

Question: Which Li technology are the marketing materials comparing to?

None. This battery is not competing against Li Tech - they are competing against Lead Acid batteries in their various forms.

Your marketing information DOES compare FLA GEL and Lithium. So which Lithium?

Another Maine Sail question:

Originally Posted by phil dunn

Question: Is there any long term data from any reputable third party that supports at least 1/2 of the claimed cycles?

Yes, Siemens Nokia Systems, mobility system companies, golf companies who all cycle their products much more than other industries, as well as the IEC and the TUE (Technical University of Eindhoven, Holland, one of the foremost test houses in the world for this type of technology).

You haven't answered this question honestly. There can be no "long term data from any reputable third party that supports at least 1/2 of the claimed cycles" as the tests can't have been carried out for the required period. I have seen the above test results and they are marked confidential! Over 1400 cycles at 80% DoD is going to take a long time, especially on a battery sized for a boat's service bank.

Some of my questions that still need clarification:

Peukerts can't be 1
They are a new kind of AGM?
They are VRLA - at what pressure?
They do gas and sulfate - but how much?
Why not compare with AGM batteries - they are very similar - Gels are a 1956 technology - good for some applications.

It would seem that Betta Batteries don't really understand batteries - or is it just their marketing department that needs an awful lot of help.

[darylat8750]

It is a form of AGM and it can sulfate. From AXCOM's user manual:

"The Lead crystal group of batteries uses a new advanced type of AGM material as a
separator, the AGM has much higher electrical conductivity, heat resistant and acid resistant
abilities than standard AGM on the market. The crystallized electrolyte in combination with
the AGM can effectively protect the plates and prevent the active material from falling off
during use, the electrolyte is completely absorbed and stored in the AGM, since the AGM is
completely saturated with electrolyte then crystallized, no free liquid electrolyte will be
present in the battery. The battery can now be used in various directional positions without
leaking. "


"During long term operation at small discharge currents the battery will form a thin layer of
sulfation on the plates increasing their size this could cause deformation of the active
material and cause it to fall off the plates. To prevent this and also to protect the battery
during small current operations the termination voltage should be set higher."


The question that remains is how they will deal with typical use as a house bank in a cruising situation where they will be used, IE small current discharges and only charging to the point where the acceptance rate decreases.

[FlyingCloud1937]

How about a real test comparing to LA

[phil dunn]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

Thanks Phil for trying to answer these Maine Sail questions, but it would appear that some of the questions you don't understand.

I'm afraid many of us are probably going to give you more of a hard time, because there are still many unanswered questions on this thread - all directed at you.

Maine Sail asked a direct question about Lithium:


Your marketing information DOES compare FLA GEL and Lithium. So which Lithium?

Another Maine Sail question:

You haven't answered this question honestly. There can be no "long term data from any reputable third party that supports at least 1/2 of the claimed cycles" as the tests can't have been carried out for the required period. I have seen the above test results and they are marked confidential! Over 1400 cycles at 80% DoD is going to take a long time, especially on a battery sized for a boat's service bank.

Some of my questions that still need clarification:

Peukerts can't be 1
They are a new kind of AGM?
They are VRLA - at what pressure?
They do gas and sulfate - but how much?
Why not compare with AGM batteries - they are very similar - Gels are a 1956 technology - good for some applications.

It would seem that Betta Batteries don't really understand batteries - or is it just their marketing department that needs an awful lot of help.

Wow, seems I have stirred up some debate here!

So, lets look at Lithium. Betta marketing use a comparison chart of battery types which is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. How can something be realistically compared against another item when you use terms like Friendlier? For the record we do not use the Betta marketing material like they do, and indeed pretty much all of the original marketing material available on the web is outdated, badly translated and not accurate. Betta know this and are making the changes themselves.

Axcom: they are a German distributor of the Betta product who have used the original marketing material and nothing else. Watch over the next few months and all of the old stuff will be replaced by new information with far more clarity.

As for long term testing, you are in fact wrong. There are batteries that have been in test and in use since prior to 2009, some of which we are currently having inspected by BT in the UK. When any company brings a product to market it goes into beta testing somewhere before general release to iron out bugs and issues that may affect performance. There are products from Betta that have been in service since around 2005, although then they were under a different brand name. Also, when companies carry out performance testing, apart from the standard IEC tests which actually do run for several years, accelerated testing is carried out. This is an approved and verified way of testing batteries, there is not a single manufacturer who does not do this. If they did not no new battery would ever be released on the market. It is very easy to test 500 plus cycles, even test 2000 cycles and extrapolate data to provide figures going way beyond that from evidential based testing. Anyone with any understanding of technical tests would know and understand that, will probably have been involved in some way or another with that.

The other point to remember is that when you test batteries, you actually do your testing on varying sizes of products - most companies submit batteries in the 7.2 to 22ah range, not 200ah plus cells. The reason for this is that smaller batteries will highlight imperfections much quicker than larger blocks. Heat tests, discharge tests, cyclic tests, drop tests and many others are performed in this way by ALL BATTERY MANUFACTURERS - FACT. It has nothing to do with the size of a boats battery bank. If you look at most of the applications where we sell batteries, they use banks of 70 plus blocks in series, often in multiple strings of 4-5 or even 6. Not only that, they use several sets of these in parallel. That is a battery bank, not 4 x 12 v blocks. But the testing that is done on those batteries making up those systems is that same as on any other system. By the ay, not only do we use Lead Crystal for boats, we actually use them for securing major data centres and mission critical applications worldwide as well. I don't know another battery that has the ability to be used for both applications by using the exact same battery.

As for being AGM, again this is not correct. As a patented technology it suits some people to refer to the battery as AGM for commercial sensitivity reasons, but as stated previously, the technologies are similar but also very different. Protection of patents is essential with new technologies, why would anyone explain on a forum what makes their product so different technically when they have a patent? Facts are, this is different and people just have to accept that sometimes technology moves on and unless you are involved at the sharp end, attitudes and scepticism will prevail. I understand that, I accept that, and indeed I even apply that thought process myself. I just happen to be at this sharp end, and I know its different in this case. Why should you believe me - you shouldn't but don't knock it until you have tried it. 20 plus years in this industry has seen very little change, but it is now.

Peukerts can't be 1 - wrong, it can at new and it is a constantly changing figure over time as a battery ages. For the sake of being pedantic, the actual figure is 1.05 at new.
They are a new kind of AGM? No, explained above
They are VRLA - at what pressure? VRLA typically gas at 5psi, but they have to have a liquid electrolyte to do that. Lead Crystal has a dry crystal electrolyte so they are pressured.
They do gas and sulfate - but how much? there are no gas release valves on these batteries, the figure for gassing is .026ml per battery per hour. Compared to a typical AGM battery of 6.5-8ml per battery per hour - you do the math!
Why not compare with AGM batteries - they are very similar - Gels are a 1956 technology - good for some applications. We do compare against AGM and VRLA - don't be confused by terminology. They are one and the same thing in reality, AGM just refers to Absorbed Glass Mat, and VRLA means Valve Regulated Lead Acid. Both the same, both use a form of glass fibre separator, both have similar plates or even different plates depending on application, but they have a different make up of electrolyte. In fact, most have the same cases, pillars and posts, the same resins to set the pillars and posts, the same internal welding straps and everything else. It is all down to the electrolyte and not terminology.

Anyway, I now need to leave the discussion as I have to leave for a meeting. I will however say this once more - don't take my word for this product, try it out and see for yourselves. I will be back, but as previously said, Tuesday and Thursday night is rugby night, and I do have a day job so please don't be surprised if I don't come back with an immediate response.

Keep it up guys, real interesting debate this one.

[StuM]

> Protection of patents is essential with new technologies, why would anyone explain on a forum what makes their product so different technically when they have a patent?

That statement demonstrates either a lack of understanding of patents or the argument of a snake oil salesman.

"A patent is an intellectual property right granted by the Government of the United States of America to an inventor “to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling the invention throughout the United States or importing the invention into the United States” for a limited time in exchange for public disclosure of the invention when the patent is granted."

Care to disclose exactly what patent numbers cover this "patented technology" ?

[phil dunn]

No not really, its not about the US but about protecting rights world wide.

Phil

[StuM]

Patent law is similar in many different countires. Any patent numbers in any country will do. So far we have zero evidence of any "patented technology"

[phil dunn]

1) Patents are territorial, and infringement is only possible in a country where a patent is in force.
2) Boston University did a study of data from 2011 in which it found that just US business interests were hit for some $29 Billion USD of patent infringement - that's how strong Patent law is in the US where controls are strict - what do you think it has cost the rest of the world? Why would anyone even want to take that risk? China and Asia in general is the place to go if you want to copy a product. Would you disclose a patent you had on a product to those markets? Think real carefully before saying yes to that by the way because over here, you really cannot do that.

I do understand patent law, and as for being a salesman of any kind, let alone a snakeoil one (which I don't understand by the way) is rather off the mark. Not my business to sell, I leave that to the sales guys.

[robert sailor]

Does anyone really care about a patent? The only thing that interests me is the batteries and if they do as suggested.