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Old 19-02-2013, 07:09   #31
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbal View Post
If you load a battery with say a bow thruster pump of which can pull a peak current of up to 800 amps, while charging your batteries - your asking for trouble.
The issue is – the battery terminal voltage is being pulled down by the load and the charger sees this as a discharged battery ( and not a loaded battery).
As a result, it supplies bulk mode current into the battery bank ( some single victron charger units will pass 120 + amps into a battery ) at the same time your trying to extract another 300 amps out of the same battery with a bow thruster pump ( as an example ).

The 2 current flows clash and produce friction, which produces lots of heat. If the charger does not overheat in the process, it causes the battery to go into thermal runaway and create a virtual core melt down, as its battery cell voltage falls and it draws more charge current – some what like in a nuclear reactor melting down internally.

If a fire does not start in the battery bay, the battery bank at least melts and collapses ( flooded lead acid cells are a bit more forgiving, as they can be topped up with water; but even so, you can still kill them this way).

Good stuff, right up to this point. This clashing currents and meltdown stuff makes no sense at all.

What WILL happen, is the drop in battery voltage can cause the charger to restart its charge cycle because it thinks it sees a low battery. That charge cycle will run through the normal bulk, absorb, float cycle even though the battery is actually at full charge (or very close, minus the brief thruster consumption). The three stage charge "should" go quickly, but for a battery that is otherwise in float it could lead to over charging if this happens a lot.

BUT..... for a charger to be charging you are presumably on shore power? And if on shore power, how often are you going to be running your windlass or thrusters?
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Old 19-02-2013, 08:30   #32
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Could be on generator, but the clashing currents is what we in Canada call "Horse Pucky".
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Old 19-02-2013, 09:07   #33
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Kimbal, you are under some mis-impressions.
"Added top this - Victron do not supply schematics, or circuit diagrams, to anybody outside the company, not even their own service agents. This restriction of technical data is to prevent competitors copying their products - intellectual copy-write."
First of all, there's no such thing as "intellectual copy-write" and intellecutal copyrights have nothing to do with whether you draw schematics.
Failing to draw them and provide them also will not protect the circuit from the competition. I can take a box to China, give some young engineer a hundred bucks and say "Give me schematic for this" and they will. For a competitor who probably already is located there? That's no expense. A jobber probably will do it for free as part of the cost of making the first ten thousand units for me.

Considering that "every" electronics vendor traditionally provides schematics so tings can be fixed? This is just Victron's petty attempt to prevent field repairs and require customers to chip everything back to the company, or similar nonsense.

And it is, bottom line, just nonsense. If they really are playing that game with schematics, I'll let them play it by themselves, and never buy their equipment.

Proprietary? You protect proprietary designed with PATENTS and if you can't get patents, you've probably got nothing special.
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Old 19-02-2013, 09:31   #34
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

I have posted an extensive how to DIY thread with pictures on CF about the breakers on the isolation transformer. It is very easy to do. That problem is caused by the breakers themselves that go bad within months to a year of use. It is very unwise not to use your IT.

On the inverter/charger: it might well have a fault but "overload" does not mean that more than rated output power is being used etc. It often means that the DC voltage on the battery connection posts of the inverter has become too low.
This device is not a simple inverter; you might have set a limit on maximum allowable power from the shore or genset. The unit will limit power consumption to that figure if so. This is a great feature because it prevents overloading the genset and tripping the shore-side breaker etc.

Also, the unit does Power Assist. This means it can use battery power to add that to shore-power or genset to fulfill output power draw.

Example: you have somehow set maximum input power to 5A/230V but are using 10A/230V. The Victron will take 5A from shore/genset plus will activate it's inverter and get the other 5A/230V from there. After a little while the batteries go down and you get the overload warning. Or, like somebody else already wrote, your battery cabling has too much resistance (too long, too thin, bad contact etc.). This will also give a low voltage cut-out.

These units are not that difficult to remove because they are hung on a special bracket. Once that bracket is installed correctly, you can simply lift the unit off and hang it back on. There are only a couple of screws to prevent it from flying off the bracket which can be unscrewed without any need to hold the unit etc.
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Old 19-02-2013, 10:07   #35
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Quote:
Considering that "every" electronics vendor traditionally provides schematics so tings can be fixed? This is just Victron's petty attempt to prevent field repairs and require customers to chip everything back to the company, or similar nonsense.
I dont know where you have been , but providing schematics is very rare these days , especially with RoHs and SMD , little can be repaired anyway, its all module replacement.

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Old 19-02-2013, 10:09   #36
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Quote:
If you load a battery with say a bow thruster pump of which can pull a peak current of up to 800 amps, while charging your batteries - your asking for trouble.
The issue is – the battery terminal voltage is being pulled down by the load and the charger sees this as a discharged battery ( and not a loaded battery).
As a result, it supplies bulk mode current into the battery bank ( some single victron charger units will pass 120 + amps into a battery ) at the same time your trying to extract another 300 amps out of the same battery with a bow thruster pump ( as an example ).
Yes that can happen

Quote:
The 2 current flows clash and produce friction, which produces lots of heat. If the charger does not overheat in the process, it causes the battery to go into thermal runaway and create a virtual core melt down, as its battery cell voltage falls and it draws more charge current – some what like in a nuclear reactor melting down internally.

If a fire does not start in the battery bay, the battery bank at least melts and collapses ( flooded lead acid cells are a bit more forgiving, as they can be topped up with water; but even so, you can still kill them this way).
electrical voodoo 101 here Im afraid, the two sources will work together

dave
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Old 20-02-2013, 04:08   #37
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Considering that "every" electronics vendor traditionally provides schematics so tings can be fixed? This is just Victron's petty attempt to prevent field repairs and require customers to chip everything back to the company, or similar nonsense.
( Quote hellosailor )

Sorry but your mistaken and obviously don't do electronic repairs. Electronic manufacturers such as > Sinergex, CTEK, Victron, Techsup, Keepower, Selectronics, and many, many, others, do not supply schematics to anyone. I can't even get a basic wiring diagram for a boat or camper van that has a victron system installed, let alone a Victron charger, as the manufacturers ( yes you boat builders and R.V Vehicle builders ), don't want to waste time drawing such items up.

Up until the 1980's this was not the case - you could get a full electrical service manual on most machines, all but the real throw away items; but now it's board jockey swap-over only, or buy a new one.

The mental reasoning in part is - the complexity with digital electronics is such that it's far cheaper to throw away the item or replace the whole circuit board; as labour costs to repair component level stuff is prohibitive. Hence good technicians are now "as rare as hen's teeth" and many have left the industry.
And so they reason, you don't need a schematic diagrams in order to swap a plug and play PCB. Hence some service agents are not much more than distribution centre having little interest in customer issues unless you want to buy a new machine.

This is the general industry attitude with electronics. It may not be the case with other industries. Added to this rationale - 3 years is considered a life time for electronic goods. It use to be 5 years. In the case of Victron, they've taken this on board and after 3 years, forget chasing spare parts for your Multi, Pheonix, or Quattro - you just won't get them.

In the case of Victron, they claim they have been copied by other competitors ( I've seen American Sinergex branded inverters identical to Victron ones in every detail, other than the colour of the case - but who copied who is another story) and so, they just refuse to supply schematic diagrams to anyone outside the company - even myself, who works as a repair agent for them.

There may be some exceptions, but not many. (ie: Government, Military, Police, NASA - but not the average Joe in the street..)

Paying some Chinese kid fresh out of Uni a fee to reverse engineer a device can be done, but much of the time it's not worth the effort; as software has to be copied, silicon chips have to be identified, which now have the part numbers removed ( or the unit is potted and sealed so it can't be opened to identify it's components, and a host of other technical obstacles.

With falling commodity prices, is the stress worth it ?

Proprietary? You protect proprietary designed with PATENTS and if you can't get patents, you've probably got nothing special.
( Quote hellosailor )
Now your above comment about patents - What a joke !
I troll the free patents on-line and many USA patents I've read are nothing more than "reinventing the wheel" and placing a new label on an old item. Very little now I consider seriously deserving of a real patent.

I've come up with better ways of doing things myself, but just don't have the financial capital to get it patented, so I shelve the idea; as do so many others.

Many electronic circuits are in my opinion not "true inventions" as nothing was actually invented - just repainted and renamed to sound different.

Patents nowadays are for ego-centric Engineers to win awards and big note themselves to their peers at dinner parties and international conventions. Very little intellect goes into some patents - just look at the plague of new tools, nuts, bolts and fixtures found in the hardware store - all with a patent and many are simply modifications to older items - big deal !

The people who actually developed new products from scratch, don't always get the recognition they deserve, but the company they work for steals the idea as their own and runs with it as their invention. It's legal and it's called Capitalism ! - much like the capitalistic thinking of withholding schematic diagrams to manipulate you to buy a new machine.

China is one place that crosses the line all the time with junk label brands.
You don't have Sony you now have Sorny, you don't have TDK you now have TDJ, you don't have Technics, you have Tekniks, and so on. It's known as the Free Market !

This capitalist mentality all started with our western culture. The only sure way to battle this, if one is disgruntled with commercial brand named stuff, is to do as I do - make and design your own equipment - which is easier said than done !
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Old 20-02-2013, 05:20   #38
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Yes that can happen


electrical voodoo 101 here Im afraid, the two sources will work together

dave
In response to your above comment on my 2nd blog - look at the pictures in the following links of melted batteries, then you will see why I say core melt down. If the currents work together as well as you say - then there would be very little heat in the internal battery reaction.

If you have not experienced it - consider yourself lucky or educated enough to understand battery technology.

I hear of this scenario almost every day in my job and dispute anybody who says otherwise. Now with the implementation of big Lithium Iron cells coming into use and the ignorance with chargers and battery use amongst users - if you place a standard Lithium Iron battery on a regular charger designed for flooded lead acid cells, you might as well "run for the hills", as Lithium Iron cells are current charged devices, where most primary cells like AGMs, VRLA, etc are voltage charge devices. A standard battery charger is a voltage charging device, which will see a Lithium Iron cell as a short circuit.

Lots of money unfortunately does not offset ignorance in these situations.

The following links will illustrate what happens to a battery when thermal runaway, or "core melt down" takes over. I've seen it first hand with a number of batteries, where people try to charge while cranking an engine or pulling massive loads from the cells at the same time and then blame the poor old charger for the battery destruction - when its simply not understanding how to use their equipment ( batteries included ).

This Is the Battery that Melted In the Boeing 787 Dreamliner

What causes an exploded battery?

melted shorai battery - ADVrider

Lubo Ebiker's Blogspot
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Old 20-02-2013, 06:55   #39
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

So you are shifting your "China Meltdown" thesis to LiFePO4 batteries charged with an unsuitable source only? Or do you still hold on to your belief that "friction" causes heat meltdown in lead acid batteries?

Yes, inappropriate charging of Li batteries can be problematic, as can inappropriate charging of any battery. No, there is no "friction" occurring in simultaneous charge/discharge that will melt down LA batteries.

BTW, the Li-type batteries used in the Boeing planes are not the same chemistry, construction or electrical characteristics of the LiFePO4 batteries in use in consumer systems. So that example is a non sequitur. You do understand that?

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Old 20-02-2013, 07:21   #40
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Kimbal-
I have done electronics repairs. SONY used to pack the schematics for their consumer Trinitrons right in the box with the owner's manual. Kenwood doesn't pack them but will sell them as a service part--which is typical. SAMS PhotoFact used to offer schematics on nearly anything a consumer might own. And of course, there are the online schematic sites these days.
I didn't--and don't--say that schematics are normally packed with the product, just that they are made availabel for or with it. Although you will find that both IBM and Xerox used to interally install a bookrack in their larger machines and package ALL the service manuals inside of them. Not for the consumer's sake, but so that the field service man woul always have the right manual available at the machine.

For a company to not make schematics available to the repair trade, at all, is in my experience virtually unknown. Obviously you're dealing with another market and a veyr much less reputable group of vendors. By all means, give us the whole list, so we can boycott them all.

Perhaps you have never called the "GE Cool Line" (as they call their hot line) either. One phone call to GE, and you can get any service information, including diagnostics and part orders, for any GE product. From toaster overs to turbine engines and nuclear reactors. All from one phone call, to anyone who calls, comsumer or tech, franchisee or not. That's the gold standard. AFAIK 3M and GE are the biggest examples of folks who get that--and prosper from happier customers.

You complain that you can't get a wiring diagram for a boat or a camper van? Those aren't electronic companies, those are vehicle manufacturers. The "real" ones, the auto makers, all make manuals and wiring diagrams available. From Simca to Rolls, they all sell them. The recreational boat industry? Maybe they've changed, they used to supply next to nothing. But caravans and boats aren't quite the same as power supplies and inverter/chargers. A fox and hound are pretty much all you need to trace out a boat, on the typical small end of the market. A megayacht? That's something else again, custom work where you get what you paid for.
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Old 20-02-2013, 07:48   #41
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

@Kimbal,

My 1994 Sundeer came with full electrical diagram.
My 2010 Allegro Bus motorhome came with full electrical diagram.

So your statements are incorrect. I do understand your sour feelings as your profession (which used to be mine, I've been there...) is dying and already a dull skeleton of what it once was. But that is called progress and evolution by others. It is only with great difficulty that you can do repairs on SMD circuit boards, and even for the skilled there is a significant failure percentage.

Yes, it's come down to swapping circuit boards, and soon there will be no more layers like distributors and dealers between manufacturers and consumers. The consumer might hire an installer but might as well install and "repair" themselves. Look at sites like iFixIt... that is where the future lies for people like you and me or the younger generation like us (instruct consumers on how to do the fix).
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Old 20-02-2013, 07:55   #42
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
So you are shifting your "China Meltdown" thesis to LiFePO4 batteries charged with an unsuitable source only? Or do you still hold on to your belief that "friction" causes heat meltdown in lead acid batteries?
The guy has already shown he has no understanding, let alone education on anything he writes about in this thread. friction causing meltdown... LMAO!

Still, we need to write responses like yours and mine so that the non-tech readers also understand this. There's a whole bunch of conspiracy plot- or fantasy-fans already CF member writing BS about electric or even electronic systems so he will fit in just fine.
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Old 20-02-2013, 08:08   #43
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

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I might just throw in a few pointers here - since I service Victron gear for a well know Australian company.

........... endless mindless internet babble snipped ...................

I trust this may clear up some technical issues for some.
If you really do service Victron equipment for anyone then your employer has my sincere sympathy.

Virtually everything you posted was nonsense.

Bob's 20/80 Rule of Internet Forums: When a forum post exceeds 20 lines the probability that it is BS exceeds 80%.
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Old 21-02-2013, 04:27   #44
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

For a company to not make schematics available to the repair trade, at all, is in my experience virtually unknown. Obviously you're dealing with another market and a veyr much less reputable group of vendors. By all means, give us the whole list, so we can boycott them all. ( Quote hellosailor )

Well if the above is the case - then tell me where I can get them, or even better still produce such in any format for Victron and Sinergex units - since I need schematics and service manuals for component level repair work.

You might like to also try > CTEK, Keepower, Selectronics & Sterling as well to make the hunt a little easier.

I'm 110 % positive nobody on this site who claims to know their stuff will be able to do produce even one Victron schematic, nor a service manual for any of the above brands !

You won't get them in USA, nor Holland, nor anywhere else. Try it and see what the results are - as I will be most interested.
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Old 21-02-2013, 06:02   #45
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Re: I've Had It With Victron Equipment

Outback Power sent me a circuit block schematic and a full service manual for their inverter/charger when I asked them to. Granted, the block schematic did not have individual components on it, but most of those components were tiny surface mounted ones that are not field repairable or replaceable anyway. It did show components like power FET's, transformers, capacitors, etc that were replaceable.

I never did find the "anti-friction" circuit in it, but I know it exists because the unit easily handled high simultaneous charging and discharging while causing no problem to the batteries.

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