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Old 20-12-2011, 15:42   #46
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

John,

Here is another option to try. Using Forced Absorption Mode.

Lloyd



Forced Absorption
In some cases it may be necessary to charge the battery at the absorption voltage for a
specific period of time. In the Forced Absorption mode, the Phoenix Multi will charge at the
normal absorption voltage during the preset maximum absorption period.
The "absorption" LED will light up.
The Phoenix Multi can be switched to one of these modes from the remote panel as well as
with the aid of the front switch. A prerequisite is that all switches (front, remote and panel) are
switched to "on", and that none are switched to the "charger only" position.
Proceed is as follows to switch the Phoenix Multi to either the equalizing mode or Forced
Absorption mode:
REMARK: switch quickly from "on" to "charger only" and back. The switch must be switched
in such a way that the intermediate position is, as it were, "skipped". If the relevant switch
remains in the "off" position for any length of time, you may run the risk that the appliance will
be switched off. In that case you will need to start again at step 1. Practice is required,
particularly when using the front switch. This is less critical when using the remote panel.
1. Ensure that all switches (i.e., front switch, remote switch or remote panel switch if
present) are switched to the "on" position.
2. Ensure that the Phoenix Multi is charging (an AC input voltage must be present;
check that the "mains on" LED and one of either the "bulk", "absorption" or "float"
LEDs is illuminated).
3. Switch the switch successively to "charger only", "on" and "charger only". NOTE:
the switching itself should be done quickly but the interval between switching
should be from 1/2 to two seconds.
4. The "bulk", "absorption" and "float" LEDs will flash five times. Subsequently, the
"bulk", "absorption" and "float" LEDs will each light up for a period of two seconds.
ē If the switch is switched to "on" while the "bulk" LED illuminates, the charger
switches to the equalizing mode.
ē If the switch is switched to "on" while the "absorption" LED illuminates, the charger
switches to 'Forced Absorption'.
If the switch is not in the required position after these steps, it can be simply switched one
more time. This will not change the charging status.
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Old 20-12-2011, 16:52   #47
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Hi John,

Didn't mean to impune your knowledge...just stating didn't know if you understood, now
that we have that cleared up...good
Lloyd,
No offense taken. I do very much appreciate you spending your valuable time helping out a
complete stranger almost to the other end of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Do you have a true RMS multi-meter on board? What meters are you using to measure voltage
and charge amps? If you really have 20 amps coming from the charger, then certainly the
voltage should be above 12.6 unless you have DC loads near 20 amps running.
The meter I used for these readings is, according to its User's Guide, an Exetech 600A
True RMS AC/DC Clamp Meter. I also have on board a cheap Radio Shack type multimeter but
it is significantly less accurate and does not have a clamp on ammeter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I'm pretty sure you are not getting a true re-set with the unit still connected to the
bats.
To reset the unit yesterday per Nick's suggestion I actually disconnected the + lead at
the fuse between the Victron and the battery and had the AC power off. Agreed that may
not be giving a complete reset of the program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I'm glad you found your manual so that we now know that it is not a EU universal Voltage
unit.

If you have an rms multi-meter on board, it would be good to measure the ac voltage at
the gen, then at the auto-former both sides, and finally at the inverter charger, while
the charger is powered on and showing some sign of charge amps.
I'll try to get your requested voltage readings tomorrow when I run the generator again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Also one last Q' when running the generator, have you tried putting the inverter charger
in charge only mode, to make sure it's not peek shaving?
Yes, I have tried running the charger in charger only mode. It didn't seem to make a
difference at the time. However, based on the slight change in behavior tonight(float light
energized), we may actually be making progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I think you are on the right track with you stated plan. Keep us informed.

Lloyd
Good thought on the "Forced Absorption" mode - I'll give it a try if the reset doesn't
work.
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Old 20-12-2011, 17:44   #48
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Couple of last thoughts.

I think the AC needs to powered up to re-set and program.

Be sure to turn off the solar and any other charge sources, before the re-set reprogram.

Last do yo have a bat. hydrometer aboard? I would be curious what the voltages and the SPG of the bats are even though you cant do a resting reading.

I looked up you meter, and it appears to be good, and you will also be able to determine your peak sine-wave with that meter.

After the re-set, and reprogram be prepared to run the gen for a long period, with as few a loads as you can.

Hope I'm helping.

Lloyd
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Old 20-12-2011, 18:31   #49
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Mark, you symptoms also suggest the adaptive charge is being confused by the solar input.
I wish. It has been raining so hard here for the past week that we need full cabin lights on during the daytime.

I don't think the solar is a factor...

Mark
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Old 21-12-2011, 00:10   #50
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Update as of 0307 AST:
Woke up about midnight and couldn't get back to sleep worrying about my new batteries so got up and:
Powered off the Victron unit
disconnected it from the battery
repowered with 120 VAC
reset defaults
depowered
repowered
set/checked other pertinent settings
depowered unit
reconnected to battery
started a charge with the unit in Charger only mode, hoping beyond reason that everything
worked right.

The initial charging current was 76 A, which built to 85 in the first minute. After
several minutes the charging current decreased to 39 A with Victron output voltage and battery voltage at 13VDC, where it has been hanging for about 3/4 hour now. The "Bulk" LED has been on the whole charge.

Lloyd, voltages you requested while charging at 39A:
Gen output: 238.2 VAC
Xformer in: 238.1
Xformer out: 118.8
charger in: 117.6

Good thing the wind is howling or my neighbors in the anchorage might get annoyed with the generator at this hour.

What next, guys? At this point, I'm thinking a call to Netherlands might be in order. I don't hold much hope that the charger will ever make it to absorption since it won't even hold voltage during bulk charging.

I do have a hydrometer on board. Will check SPG when I get a chance after things settle out.

Mark, solar is definitely not a factor here - it's pitch dark with not even a moon showing.
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Old 21-12-2011, 01:20   #51
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Just called Victron Service in Netherlands who agreed that my unit isn't putting out the correct voltages. He suggested I contact the nearest dealer, which I am trying to do now.

Hope the sun comes out tomorrow to recharge my batteries while I'm tracking down a Victron dealer.
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Old 21-12-2011, 09:47   #52
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaming Yachtsman View Post
Just called Victron Service in Netherlands who agreed that my unit isn't putting out the correct voltages. He suggested I contact the nearest dealer, which I am trying to do now.

Hope the sun comes out tomorrow to recharge my batteries while I'm tracking down a Victron dealer.
Hi John,

Sounds like something is getting hot.

How long did it produce 39 amps? What was the voltage of the bats when the charge restarted?

You're in a cat right, how many bats do have and what is the configuration, are they all next to each other? When you measure the voltage drop, are you measuring the lead post on the bats to the terminals on the Victron?

Did you manage to get the temp sensor removed from the Victron.

Have you tried the Forced Absorption? Also it may be worth it to force a equalization secession on the bats. Do you have a bat. temp thermometer?

It may be a battery issue,

Lloyd
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Old 21-12-2011, 10:05   #53
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

John,

One last question, What lights are showing on the Victron, using the link here is a troubleshooting with lights.

Below is a picture of a wave from and measure of factors, your numbers show some clipping of the peak. But without an o-scope there is no way to look at the peak of the wave to see if it is getting square off. If the generator, the transformer, or the Victron is getting hot, all will tend to square the peaks which will lower the charge amperage.

Lloyd

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Old 21-12-2011, 10:16   #54
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Hi John,

This has nothing to do with the Victron issues. But you SUB history.

Do you know Malcolm Muncey, and or Ron Render?

Lloyd
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Old 21-12-2011, 11:39   #55
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Lloyd,
Responding to your last 3 posts in order:

With the cover off the unit, I can feel heat radiating from the motherboard area. I have no idea whether it is abnormal as I have never run the unit with the cover off before. I have heard its cooling fans kick on during charges on shore power in the past.

The unit put out 39 amps for over an hour until the water heater tripped off when I secured the charge and went back to bed. I didn't look closely nor note the battery voltage but I think is was between 12.20 and 12.25 (hence my concern at 0023 when I fell awake worrying).

Battery configuration is six 6 V golf cart/fork truck batteries in series parallel to essentially make three 12 V batteries. They are all strapped into the same battery tray touching each other just as the two previous sets were. BTW, the vender in Puerto Rico reports that each of these batteries is rated at 150 AH.

I never actually measured voltage drop,per se, along the battery cable. I measured across the + and - terminals on the Victron then again across the + and - posts of the closest battery I could reach. The values were within a tenth of a volt as I reported in my post on 12/19.

Have not yet made it to shore to find a miniature screwdriver with which to remove the temperature sensor. I still don't think that could be depressing the voltage as much as we are seeing, especially in "Bulk" mode. Granted, it could be messing up the setting processs so I'll try to find a Radio Shack in town.

Have not yet tried Forced Absorption. Again, we aren't making it through bulk so I'm not sure how we will be able to "force" absorption. I'll look at that again, though. At this point I'm willing to try almost anything!

Do not have a battery thermometer but none that I could reach felt even slightly warmer than ambient.

The lights showing during a charge are "Mains On" and "Bulk".

Don't know either Malcom or Ron but then I retired in 1991 so there is a whole new crop of sailors staffing subs these days, including women starting next year.

Good news is the sun is out and battery voltage is up to 13.00 Volts (obviously higher than "no-load" voltage but at least we aren't draining them flat). Now if I only had a charger so I could make water . . . .
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Old 21-12-2011, 16:09   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaming Yachtsman
Just called Victron Service in Netherlands who agreed that my unit isn't putting out the correct voltages. He suggested I contact the nearest dealer, which I am trying to do now.

Hope the sun comes out tomorrow to recharge my batteries while I'm tracking down a Victron dealer.
I didn't want to put my paddle in the water again too early since I thought ti would be good to see how the old hands do at this ....

The woman I mentioned to you who has extremely good technical skills in Holland, is Denise.

I searched high and low until I found the piece of paper with her name on it.

In South Africa there is also a top notch guy called Andre du Randt ... His number is +27836001761.

I'm sure he could assist you is you sent him an email with the problem and things you have tried to correct it.

Between Denise in Holland and Andre (who is Victron representative in South Africa) they were able to assist me pronto on some very technical issues.

Unfortunately I am one of those modern day sailors who likes to involve the manufacturer viz. Satellite comms if necessary, until the problem is solved.
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Old 21-12-2011, 17:40   #57
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaming Yachtsman View Post
Lloyd,
Responding to your last 3 posts in order:

With the cover off the unit, I can feel heat radiating from the motherboard area. I have no idea whether it is abnormal as I have never run the unit with the cover off before. I have heard its cooling fans kick on during charges on shore power in the past.
If the overheat light on the Victron isnít flashing I donít think the unit is overheating.

Quote:
The unit put out 39 amps for over an hour until the water heater tripped off when I secured the charge and went back to bed. I didn't look closely nor note the battery voltage but I think is was between 12.20 and 12.25 (hence my concern at 0023 when I fell awake worrying).
I donít think itís your charger as much as I now think itís a couple of issue compounded. 39 amps for an hour is only going to be at best 29 actual amps into the battery bank, after considering charge efficiency of a normal lead acid battery. Plus the fact that these are new batteries, youíre working against a bank that has higher resistance until itís full conditioned.

Quote:
Battery configuration is six 6 V golf cart/fork truck batteries in series parallel to essentially make three 12 V batteries. They are all strapped into the same battery tray touching each other just as the two previous sets were. BTW, the vender in Puerto Rico reports that each of these batteries is rated at 150 AH.
That gives you a total of 450 am hrs in the bank, using the 50-80 rule that only leaves you with about 180 amp hrs usable. Iím going to take a WAG that your 24 hr load is going to be north of 130 amp hrs, minus what ever you are putting back in with solar.

I am also going to guess that your true state of charge is somewhere about 30-40%. And when youíre seeing 13 volt after solar you are really not seeing a resting voltage greater then 12.1 Ė12.2 voltsÖ.so that 13 volts is really just surface charge. A 450 amp hr bank down as low as I think you bank really is, is going to take about 10 hrs straight charge time to get back up to full.

Quote:
I never actually measured voltage drop,per se, along the battery cable. I measured across the + and - terminals on the Victron then again across the + and - posts of the closest battery I could reach. The values were within a tenth of a volt as I reported in my post on 12/19.
The only true way to measure real voltage drop is as I explained, what you are measuring is just a WAG, and doesnít measure the drop under load.


Quote:
Have not yet made it to shore to find a miniature screwdriver with which to remove the temperature sensor. I still don't think that could be depressing the voltage as much as we are seeing, especially in "Bulk" mode. Granted, it could be messing up the setting processs so I'll try to find a Radio Shack in town.
When trouble shooting we need to remove as many variable as possible

Quote:
Have not yet tried Forced Absorption. Again, we aren't making it through bulk so I'm not sure how we will be able to "force" absorption. I'll look at that again, though. At this point I'm willing to try almost anything!
Now I donít believe forcing into absorption is going to do any good, other then tell us the charger can operate in absorption mode. What you really need is about 4-5 hours generator runtime, with no other loads being take from the generator, or the battery.

Quote:
Do not have a battery thermometer but none that I could reach felt even slightly warmer than ambient.

The lights showing during a charge are "Mains On" and "Bulk".
The light showing in bulk in my mind confirms the above that I have stated.

Quote:
Don't know either Malcom or Ron but then I retired in 1991 so there is a whole new crop of sailors staffing subs these days, including women starting next year
Both are a couple friends of mine, both retired out in the mid 80ís Malcolm was the Western Fleet Commander, and Ron was his second in command.

[quoteGood news is the sun is out and battery voltage is up to 13.00 Volts (obviously higher than "no-load" voltage but at least we aren't draining them flat). Now if I only had a charger so I could make water . . . .[/QUOTE]

I think the 13 volts is surface charge on a very low state of charge across the whole battery bank.

Quote:
The unit put out 39 amps for over an hour until the water heater tripped off when I secured the charge and went back to bed.
John, I spoke with the Victron wholesale dealer/Technician here today in Seattle, and he suggested that your Inverter only has a 80 amp charge capability, and that it has a power factor of 1. That being the case, when connected to a perfect grid power source, the charge can only really do less than 80 amps, but greater than 70 ampsÖall-dependent on ambient temp, and how long itís in bulk charge, as the unit heats up doing the work the total of charge is going to drop maybe even below 70 amps.

Now we have to factor in that your unit is running from a generator with less then a perfect waveform, feed into a auto-former that at best is only 75% efficient. They were also the Trace/Xantrex Dealer, and know the transformer well. Then feeding the Victron inverter/charger, which is then feeding the charge side, the hot water tank heater, the refrigeration, and the freezer, all the while.

That my friend is why the charge amps drop after it runs for a short time.

What you need to do now is start the generator, turn off all AC loads, and all dc loads, and disconnect the solar. Then let the charger run for at least 4 hours no stop, with no loads on the dc or the ac. Then measure the voltage every hour, and try taking an SPG on at least one cell of each of the 6 volt batteries. I would also use the clamp meter to measure the actual current going into each section of the 12 volt batteries at each hour. Measure both the positive cable, and the negative cable. Also measure each tail ie.. the pos. and neg. cable going to the DC Bus, from the bank

I think a better arrangement is going to be to re-wire the generator back to 120, and use the auto-former to only feed your 220 loads. Jeff from BE said he would recommend against running the inverter through the auto-former

Lloyd
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Old 21-12-2011, 20:31   #58
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

Now, I just decided to look up the "Xantrex Model T240 120/240 VAC Autotransformer 60 Hertz

It's a 3.9 KVA unit, that translates to to 3.12 KW power, any exceeding that 3.12 KW is going to cause heating, which is going to cause problems, and this does not include loses

So we have a 6 KW generator wired 240, feeding the Auto-former rated at 3.9 KVA or 3.12KW, the loads I can only guess at, but Starting with the Victron during charge, assuming 15 amps, at 120 v = 1800 watts flat out, Now a water heater at 1200-1500 watts, plus refigeration and freezer at least another 1000 plus watts, what about the air/con...I know that's running from the gen 240.

John, it looks like 4200 watts off the Auto-former, plus any other incidental loads is exceeding your 3.9 KVA, plus you are asking it to do inductive loads as well, so by the time we WAG effeciency loses, I'd say your over temping the Auto-former, the wave form of the gen isn't holding up, because of this as well as the inductive load from the air/con, as well as the inductive losses falling back on the gen windings through the auto-former.

Lloyd
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Old 21-12-2011, 21:30   #59
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This is getting messy with most info incorrect.

First, the genset will have no trouble. Second, an autotransformer is only loaded with the inbalance part of a 120-0-120V system. Third battery acceptance is irrelevant because charge voltage is too low. Solar panels at 13V with how much amps? Think, compare.

I'm out of here and advice the OP to get that Victron dealer there involved... Or test the system with another battery hooked up to the charger for test only.

Also, try another charging source, like alternator. Does charging work with that? Don't keep repeating a procedure that leads nowhere. Finding Radio Shack to buy a screw driver?! A nail, file and 5 minutes make one!

cheers,
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Old 22-12-2011, 05:04   #60
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Re: Is My Victron Multi Dying?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
This is getting messy with most info incorrect.

First, the genset will have no trouble. Second, an autotransformer is only loaded with the inbalance part of a 120-0-120V system. Third battery acceptance is irrelevant because charge voltage is too low. Solar panels at 13V with how much amps? Think, compare.

I'm out of here and advice the OP to get that Victron dealer there involved... Or test the system with another battery hooked up to the charger for test only.

Also, try another charging source, like alternator. Does charging work with that? Don't keep repeating a procedure that leads nowhere. Finding Radio Shack to buy a screw driver?! A nail, file and 5 minutes make one!

cheers,
Nick.
Nick,

Thanks for your sage advice on this problem. Please don't abandon me yet, though. You seem to share my opinion that neither the generator nor transformer are the problem.

I would love to get a Victron dealer here involved but the nearest one is 130 miles east in 25+ knot winds - not happening soon. The best I can do is e-mail/telephone until the recommended local electrician MAY be able to help Monday. I'll see what I can do about another battery. The alternator on the main engine charged at 50 amps a few days ago when we moved the boat to this anchorage. That move was only about an hour but the charge rate kept up until anchored.

I called Denise at Victron Netherlands about an hour ago. She said that the unit is providing what the batteries want to see, which is saying, I think, that the unit is working fine and that the high resistance of the new batteries is causing the problem as mentioned back on page 1 of this thread. She also told me that a screwdriver is NOT required to remove the temp sensor - just pull the connector off the pins on the board. I do have an e-mail address now so we'll see if I can get anything that way.

Ok, so I pulled the temp sensor connector, measured a set of parameters (current, voltage, SPG), and started the four hour charge Lloyd suggested. Before I could finish measuring and recording my first set of currents, the charge current was down to 37 amps with battery voltage at 12.93. Obviously the temperature sensor is not the problem.

I will be trying the marina again for dock space with shore power as soon as they open in a few minutes. More to come.
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