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Old 15-07-2018, 10:48   #106
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Think about why maybe no one noticed your maths error.
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Old 15-07-2018, 13:15   #107
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Think about why maybe no one noticed your maths error.
Ouch

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Old 18-07-2018, 04:13   #108
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Interesting most recent arrival youtube with possible domestic battery solution in Li-Ion 18650 cells for DIY solutions

The potential advantage is reducing cost from typically $10 a cell from battery shops down to often less than $2 dollars a cell so DIY can slash battery cost by ~80%.

The video shows the build and the safety tests with heat testing up to peak 2C usage and steady state 1C usage .

Note: The example in the youtube isn't made for marine use so further modifications would have to be made to make them more useful for marine users .

For DIY enthusiast its best to look all the youtubes on this channel jehugarci and others channels before embarking on DIY Lithuim solutions .
The rewards can be great having a domestic battery that last many years and properly done can be super easy to maintain compared to lead acid solutions

Also from the Lithium family Li ions 18650 cells are very safe even if they accidentally melt down if they are kept in suitable heat resistant containers like thin sheet metal with suitable insulation material.

Youtube.com/user/jehugarci

(California based lithium battery experimenter)
jehugarci

DIY Rapid Build 18650 PowerWall Module project - design & testing

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Old 18-07-2018, 04:53   #109
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bouncycastle View Post
Interesting most recent arrival youtube with possible domestic battery solution in Li-Ion 18650 cells for DIY solutions

The potential advantage is reducing cost from typically $10 a cell from battery shops down to often less than $2 dollars a cell so DIY can slash battery cost by ~80%.

The video shows the build and the safety tests with heat testing up to peak 2C usage and steady state 1C usage .

Note: The example in the youtube isn't made for marine use so further modifications would have to be made to make them more useful for marine users .

For DIY enthusiast its best to look all the youtubes on this channel jehugarci and others channels before embarking on DIY Lithuim solutions .
The rewards can be great having a domestic battery that last many years and properly done can be super easy to maintain compared to lead acid solutions

Also from the Lithium family Li ions 18650 cells are very safe even if they accidentally melt down if they are kept in suitable heat resistant containers like thin sheet metal with suitable insulation material.

Youtube.com/user/jehugarci

(California based lithium battery experimenter)
jehugarci

DIY Rapid Build 18650 PowerWall Module project - design & testing

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Old 18-07-2018, 05:53   #110
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Yes. Keep science experiments on land.
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Old 18-07-2018, 09:58   #111
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by Colin A View Post
I'm pretty sure Australia France and South Korea are all planning on Lithium for their next subs. The US still uses Lead Acid made by Exide.
The USA was (AFAIK) the last country in the world to finally get rid of the stupid law mandating sealed beam headlights as well.
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Old 19-07-2018, 04:00   #112
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

@CatNewBee
prismatic cell solutions do exist off the shelf plug and play for richer folk and are another market that costs more.
Even single cell prismatic cells are for sale and can be joined up in DIY projects .
Example of that exist on the same you tube channel "jehugarcia "

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcM...uSa49DJFYltOTw

That solution may not suit the many family cruisers or long haul cruiser with DIY solutions are looking for as prismatic cells tend to cost more often too expensive in this time .

https://www.epectec.com/batteries/pr...uch-packs.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by epectec.com
The prismatic cell improves space utilization and allows flexible design but it can be more expensive to manufacture, less efficient in thermal management and have a shorter cycle life than the cylindrical design.
Its no mistake that Tesla cars opted to use the 18650 and newer 18750 Lithuim Ion solutions for thief longer life cycles and greater power density and potential lowwer costs with mass production and proven safty record and safety solutions.

However if your rich it is much more easy to go to the shops and buy the best solutions that suit you like LiFePO4 or prismatic cell or ready made 18650 solutions than to do DIY solutions
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Old 19-07-2018, 05:08   #113
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Well, I have mine DIY built from prismatic cells, and I am not considered rich - but this is a relative term anyway. There are many people out there, that would consider you rich if you own a bycicle, and a vessel is far beyond they can imagine.

I have carefully selected my components and done it, because it made sense for us and pays off on the long run together with the solar and inverter. Diesel and propane gets expensive over the time as liveaboard, and alone not running the engines or the generator to re-charge LA batteries pays for the cells.

It is also a safety and reliability question. Li-Ion is a no-go for me for marine use, and massive parallel tiny cells produce more issues on the long run with severe damages to the other cells and the boat around, than you may save in the first place.

For a big problen, take a big hammer.

Don't get me wrong, nothing bad with experimenting with new technologies in a lab or on shore.

My setup was meant to be developed in few weeks, installed and tested for a few months and used hopefully maintenance free for a decade of blue water cruising.

And under that premises I have chosen my components, they are not the cheapest, that's true, but also not overprized. Compared to alternatives like AGM or equipment GEL, they are more than competitive, and performance wise far beyond. The circuitry to protect them is fairly straight forward and can be easy replaced even with other manufacturers products if necessary, the system can be used in emergency mode completely like a plain battery - without the BMS interferring.

Usually drop in expensive packages from Victron, Mastervolt etc. are closed source and do not provide that capacity, flexibility and costs at least 3 times more per Ah.

So it is a question of usage, costs and performance over a long time period.
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Old 19-07-2018, 09:14   #114
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

I'm with you, CatNewBee. If I was doing a big propulsion bank of Lithium batteries, it would probably be LiFeP04 prismatics of respectable size, in straight series. I'm not down with 18650 type solutions at all without some means of jettisoning the offending bank or block in the (admittedly rare) instance of a fire. Thats just me. As it is, FLA is all I can afford until I win the Powerball, and I have definitely learned to love them.
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Old 19-07-2018, 13:34   #115
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

@ NewCatBee
Nice to meet a fellow DIY solution seeker with real hands on experience

I can only base My DIY on smaller projects using mostly 18650 are some few packs for Electric bikes and motor bike starting batteries and jump starts for Inboards and outboards when the main battery is down .
These 18650 replaced the earlier AGM, FLA, NiCads , NiMh and later LiPo solutions .
So far the 18650 have proved to be very tough

However feed back from those who have done larger projects is the risks from DIY packs is reduced in larger packs with planning ahead replacement solutions for when some or any cells go bad
In larger packs reducing capacity from say 400 amp hours down to 395 Ah with swapping out some faulty cells is mostly just the time to do it but can keep the main packs assembled in sub section packs going for another few years

The only major risks come from charging at below 0 degrees C which can wreck all types of Li-Ion or from overcharging in high heat and causing plating .
(Link below explains this temperature issue for batteries )

http://batteryuniversity.com/index.p...w_temperatures

Its how the packs are built and how the BMS are doing their jobs that are important
The 18650 dont like to do too many cycles without balancing systems solutions and really are not suited to using without really good BMS solutions
Building with the sub assembly packs in smaller sizes often require more BMS than the larger Prismatic cells .
However prices for good BMS solutions are dropping especaily with some open source solutions selling kits that can be soldered together to save even more costs
However when a larger Prismatic cell goes it harder to figure solutions for the rest of the pack .

The cost of the 18650 cells is dropping at a exponentially faster rate than Prismatic cells

A few years back The prismatic cells were probably the best solution in there time easier to connect and certainly well priced for their time but Lithium Ion price wars are changing the story rapidly .

I know its hard work putting together packs of several hundred or thousands of cells but payback is less risk to lose the entire pack if there is some local issue like one BMS went wrong and takes out ten cells or some local shorting takes out few cells .

Over many years losing many good smaller packs especaily Lipos and NiMh bigger packs the 18650 solution when you got all the bugs sorted is hard to beat if you sorce the cells at low enough prices
then the 18650 projects turns into combine together as many typically 6 to 10 cell packs grouped in parallel and assembled into the desired voltage and AH and respecting the C discharge rates
That often means keeping below 1C discharge rates where those 18650 cells preform best or for short peak loads of 2C .
really big fairly cheap domestic battery solutions in the 200 to 400 Ah can be with DIY solutions surprisingly low costs even compared to drop in AGM solutions

I am the first to say for big propulsion solutions I cant see too many DIY solutions in this time in 18650 cells that for the most adventurous type
I think you will go stir crazy joining together 10,000 to 100,000 plus small typicaly 2 AH 18650 cells
Then trying to find any faulty cells there would be a interesting challenge without some sort of computer system that keeps track of all the cells.
Those computer solutions exist in the top end market drop in 18650 battery solutions like Tesla but are not really available and proven to work to the Open source market in this time .

This you tube with " Robert Murry-Smith " ultimate DIY battery egg head is a battery and capacitor inventor using home brew graphene and carbon solutions
Presently this week he is making a carbon battery solution for the electric car Twizzy all from scratch
It might be worth checking out as cost wise and safety wise it looks to be the real cost effective solution if it works as predicted it will work from smaller trial batches



For those who want more info about the LiFePO4 solutions this below Youtube is from narrow boat user who did it
He explains the benefits for him doing the Vectron LiFePO4 drop in solutions



and tonite our Califorian " jehugarcia "battery maker covers many issues about the 18650 cells packs in larger sizes that are in this post

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Old 19-07-2018, 13:56   #116
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bouncycastle View Post
@ NewCatBee
Nice to meet a fellow DIY solution seeker with real hands on experience

I can only base My DIY on smaller projects using mostly 18650 are some few packs for Electric bikes and motor bike starting batteries and jump starts for Inboards and outboards when the main battery is down .
These 18650 replaced the earlier AGM, FLA, NiCads , NiMh and later LiPo solutions .
So far the 18650 have proved to be very tough

However feed back from those who have done larger projects is the risks from DIY packs is reduced in larger packs with planning ahead replacement solutions for when some or any cells go bad
In larger packs reducing capacity from say 400 amp hours down to 395 Ah with swapping out some faulty cells is mostly just the time to do it but can keep the main packs assembled in sub section packs going for another few years

The only major risks come from charging at below 0 degrees C which can wreck all types of Li-Ion or from overcharging in high heat and causing plating .
(Link below explains this temperature issue for batteries )

http://batteryuniversity.com/index.p...w_temperatures

Its how the packs are built and how the BMS are doing their jobs that are important
The 18650 dont like to do too many cycles without balancing systems solutions and really are not suited to using without really good BMS solutions
Building with the sub assembly packs in smaller sizes often require more BMS than the larger Prismatic cells .
However prices for good BMS solutions are dropping especaily with some open source solutions selling kits that can be soldered together to save even more costs
However when a larger Prismatic cell goes it harder to figure solutions for the rest of the pack .

The cost of the 18650 cells is dropping at a exponentially faster rate than Prismatic cells

A few years back The prismatic cells were probably the best solution in there time easier to connect and certainly well priced for their time but Lithium Ion price wars are changing the story rapidly .

I know its hard work putting together packs of several hundred or thousands of cells but payback is less risk to lose the entire pack if there is some local issue like one BMS went wrong and takes out ten cells or some local shorting takes out few cells .

Over many years losing many good smaller packs especaily Lipos and NiMh bigger packs the 18650 solution when you got all the bugs sorted is hard to beat if you sorce the cells at low enough prices
then the 18650 projects turns into combine together as many typically 6 to 10 cell packs grouped in parallel and assembled into the desired voltage and AH and respecting the C discharge rates
That often means keeping below 1C discharge rates where those 18650 cells preform best or for short peak loads of 2C .
really big fairly cheap domestic battery solutions in the 200 to 400 Ah can be with DIY solutions surprisingly low costs even compared to drop in AGM solutions

I am the first to say for big propulsion solutions I cant see too many DIY solutions in this time in 18650 cells that for the most adventurous type
I think you will go stir crazy joining together 10,000 to 100,000 plus small typicaly 2 AH 18650 cells
Then trying to find any faulty cells there would be a interesting challenge without some sort of computer system that keeps track of all the cells.
Those computer solutions exist in the top end market drop in 18650 battery solutions like Tesla but are not really available and proven to work to the Open source market in this time .

This you tube with " Robert Murry-Smith " ultimate DIY battery egg head is a battery and capacitor inventor using home brew graphene and carbon solutions
Presently this week he is making a carbon battery solution for the electric car Twizzy all from scratch
It might be worth checking out as cost wise and safety wise it looks to be the real cost effective solution if it works as predicted it will work from smaller trial batches



For those who want more info about the LiFePO4 solutions this below Youtube is from narrow boat user who did it
He explains the benefits for him doing the Vectron LiFePO4 drop in solutions
massive parallel configurations are really hard to balance, cells on the edge usually get more power in and out as cells in the middle of the bus, also all cells must have breakers in case of a short, otherwise huge reverse currents from the neighbors will fry the cell and potentially start a fire. It is not easy to monitor a single cell or to find a cell, that is out of spec.

I know, there are many enthisiasts playing with them, because they are cheap - even with salvaged cells from cars, notebooks etc. But there are also reported fires on youtube caused by this efforts.

I do not want to weigh if saving 500$ is worth the risk of losing a 50000$ boat and eventually life on the ocean. Prismatic cells are risky too, but they are built for that loads, as long as you not parallel them. So I consider them on a magnitude safer at sea , one prismatic cell 1000Ah is save with 1000A continous load, 2Ah cells are save with 2A, 1000Ah requires 500 cells in parallel, one cell can be exposed to 1000A from the neighbors while she is designed for 2A.

I guess, you get the point. Each one needs a circuit breaker. 1000Ah cell costs 1000€ ex VAT, 500 cells plus 500 fuses plus holders, plus connecting material must be cheaper, 2$ per cell plus fuse plus housing and bus material... you mentioned blocks and bms'es. I doubt youll save much.
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Old 19-07-2018, 15:40   #117
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

3 strings in parallel maximum is a good rule of thumb.

18650's or other cylindricals are OK for something you need to carry around.

Not a large House bank, certainly not on a boat or camper, anything mobile.
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Old 20-07-2018, 06:33   #118
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

There is always something new in Lithium battery and this info from a March 2018 youtube below explains using parts of the Tesla car to use in a Motor home RV .
The sub assembly they use has 444 cells and is giving them a 5kw 24volt solution
The RV owner explains all the safety issues the temperature issues the balancing solutions and the charging solutions .

Overview of the Tesla Lithium Battery Module We are Installing in our RV - EV Battery Hack!


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Old 20-07-2018, 08:03   #119
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

SimpliPhi


The below short Youtube is from SimpliPhi lithuim ferro Phoshate (LFP) and it compres it extreme safety and 10,000 cycle life ~10 year (at 1 cycle per day )
There is very useful comparison tables.
Based on those tables the KW hour cost in the USA are ~14cents for SimpliPhi LFP 80% DOD
That is versus ~19cents per Kw hour for the less safe Trojan 105 RE batteries ~30% DOD ~2700 cycle life (est) ~3 years (at 1 cycle per day)

However the 24V 3.4Kw battery is kicking in at ~$3700 versus several Trojans at ~$185 each est 4 battery for 24 volts ( typically replace battery every 3 years )

Very hard sell the SimpliPhi Lithium Iron Phosphate when there is only a estimated KW hour saving of ~30%
that translates to $367 per year for the LFP versus ~$430 a year with the Trojans .
Not to many folk want to fork out nearly $4000 for one LFP battery even if it gives them ~20 years with low cycle regime .





The other video is larger project for house using lots of Simpli battery
There must be easy $20,000 of battery to do that house .
Howeveer most people can expect to keep the house over 20 years and get 20 years from the battery unlike boats where they often get sold every few years

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Old 10-07-2019, 14:07   #120
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Discharging LFP cells even to 100% dead flat in a controlled fashion is perfectly safe.

True for any LI chemistry.

What is dangerous, is trying to "resuscitate" and continue using them after that extinction event.

Especially non-LFP lithium chemistries.

LTO may be exceptional in that regard.
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