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Old 02-07-2018, 09:37   #76
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Nothing is safe, but LFP in a propper install are safer than lead acid batteries
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:03   #77
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by ngmayo View Post
With LiFePo4 a 100 amp hour rating means you have 100 amp hours usable.
Are you saying that doing a 20-hour load test on a Battleborn will yield full rated AH before the internal BMS LVD shuts down?

Personally I don't risk dropping any LFP House bank below 2.975V/cell, for 4S 11.9V

That's usually 10% left, maybe lower at low discharge rates. 20% would be safer for someone not paying as close attention.

I also stop charging at 3.45Vpc or 13.8 for longevity.

Some people think that sacrifices 5-10% at the top end.

So I usually ballpark LFP as delivering 80-70% usable compared to nominal rating.
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:09   #78
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Nothing is safe, but LFP in a propper install are safer than lead acid batteries
I assume you are comparing a proper install of LFP versus a proper install of a lead acid batteries. They are both reasonably safe in a marine environment. The LFP installation has more points of failure due to its more complex battery management hardware and firmware and wiring
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:26   #79
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Haven't tested myself before install. Also, I hooked up 500 watts of solar and haven't calibrated all meters well enough to give a true scientific answer. I have 800 amp hours total which is a lot to draw down plus keep 100 isolated for the engine when not charging house above 13 volts so the science gets tricky. I found Battleborn very responsive if you want to ask for their test data.
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:31   #80
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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I assume you are comparing a proper install of LFP versus a proper install of a lead acid batteries. They are both reasonably safe in a marine environment. The LFP installation has more points of failure due to its more complex battery management hardware and firmware and wiring
Yes but part of a proper install is failsafe design.

So "failure" means no-op but no danger of any kind.
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Old 02-07-2018, 20:23   #81
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Lets keep it simple. Well made lead acid heavy duty batteries will last a decade or more if reasonably well maintained and not excessively discharged. They’re the commercial and patrol boat standard round the world. Plus they’re easily repairable with new plates. At some point the new technologies will push lead acid into the background though its unlikely lead acid will ever really disappear by virtue of its low cost. Lead acid technology has been around since the early 1800’s. So its in everyone’s text book.
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Old 02-07-2018, 20:28   #82
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Try truck equipment dealers to get heavy duty lead acid batteries at good prices. Marine dealers and so called “wholesalers” have large add ons. And there aren’t very many manufactures of heavy duty commercial lead acid batteries. Just lots of names.
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Old 03-07-2018, 00:01   #83
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by piberman View Post
Lets keep it simple. Well made lead acid heavy duty batteries will last a decade or more if reasonably well maintained and not excessively discharged. They’re the commercial and patrol boat standard round the world. Plus they’re easily repairable with new plates. At some point the new technologies will push lead acid into the background though its unlikely lead acid will ever really disappear by virtue of its low cost. Lead acid technology has been around since the early 1800’s. So its in everyone’s text book.
Yes, thats true. Same for horses, been around even longer for centuries. No roman emperor would have immagined to see them rarely on the modern highways, and if - they are standing on the carriage insted of pulling her. Crazy world...
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:09   #84
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Try truck equipment dealers to get heavy duty lead acid batteries at good prices. Marine dealers and so called “wholesalers” have large add ons. And there aren’t very many manufactures of heavy duty commercial lead acid batteries. Just lots of names.
No, for deep cycling "House" bank usage you want batts designed for that.

As you say there are only a handful of quality makers, 3-4 for sealed, maybe 6 for FLA.

In auto / truck / big box channels 99% are actually JCI, not a maker of quality deep cycle.

https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
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Old 11-07-2018, 13:31   #85
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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AKA a 200 amp hour lead acid battery only has 100 amp hours usable. With LiFePo4 a 100 amp hour rating means you have 100 amp hours usable.
I see this stuff a lot and it discounts the fact that you have zero amp hours left in a 100 amp hour LiFePO4 pack after you have taken out 100 amp hours but you still have an emergency 100 amp hours left in a 200 amp hour lead acid pack after you have removed the comparable recommended 50% or 100 amp hours. That extra 100 amp hours in the lead acid pack that you normally shouldn't touch but won't kill your battery to draw on during emergency might be the 100 amp hours you need to get to safe water.
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Old 11-07-2018, 14:17   #86
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

This is a tread drift definitely but I wonder if any of the people fitting Lithium batteries know about flooded NiCa as an alternative. Would be my first choice if I had a larger boat but I don't have room (or need) for a 900ah bank which was the smallest I could find at the time. NiCad was, and I think still is, a standard for large scale banks in the power industry. I am talking about the batteries that keep the hospital equipment running while the generators get up to speed in a power outage. They are practically indestructible, have a 20yr life can be cycled to 100% (recommendation is to store them discharged when not in use!), have no objection to C 1 charge/discharge rates (just in case you do have a 900a alternator handy or 3 phase AC power!!) and are very well established technology. Initial cost is about twice FLA's but because of the larger DDC and longer life, over time they are cheaper.

They do of course have a down side, what doesn't. In this case it is an alkaline electrolyte which is rather dangerous if you spill it on skin. Same effect as strong bleach, skin goes soapy and dissolves but painlessly. There have been cases of severe damage because of unnoticed spills when a battery case case been damaged. This is however only when cells are used for.mining/caving as power for individual lights and case got damaged in a fall.
The other downside is that they are about 25% bigger than FLA's although I think lighter.

If you are looking for a power pack that can massive current, take as much charge as you can throw at it and store a usable 900ah+ capacity they may be worth a look at what Wikapiadia says. (down the page, first part is the little sealed one like you have in a flashlight). Ignore the bits on cell memory, it only applies to sealed cells.
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Old 11-07-2018, 14:22   #87
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by KTP View Post
I see this stuff a lot and it discounts the fact that you have zero amp hours left in a 100 amp hour LiFePO4 pack after you have taken out 100 amp hours but you still have an emergency 100 amp hours left in a 200 amp hour lead acid pack after you have removed the comparable recommended 50% or 100 amp hours. That extra 100 amp hours in the lead acid pack that you normally shouldn't touch but won't kill your battery to draw on during emergency might be the 100 amp hours you need to get to safe water.
no, the second 100Ah are not fully usable, the voltage drop is massive beyond 40% SOC. In contrast, LFP deliver almost full usable capacity at constant voltage. Ways better!
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Old 11-07-2018, 14:52   #88
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

I have no comments on the safety of these batteries but I have serious reservations about the easy availability of these products to the average DIY boater..... truly scary.

I have seen a number of outrageous lithium installations like the one shown below. The two stainless steel boxes contain two banks of lithium batteries (don't know what kind and I sure as hell was not going to open it to find out)
built from lithium cells purchased through Ebay, connected with various marettes and electrical tape all being charged by a Prosport 20 charger and also connected to an Optima AGM and all this monitored by only a voltmeter.

He was refused insurance after my survey

Many people I've talked to (& posts I've read on this forum) simply don't know what they don't know and I don't want them in a slip next to me.
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Old 11-07-2018, 15:26   #89
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Boatpoker. I totally agree. Most of the accidents waiting to happen are due to bad system designs whether it is exploding gas (both sorts!) or horrible electrics don't mess with stuff you don't understand if the consequences could be bad for your health. Stick to tried and trusted.
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Old 11-07-2018, 16:15   #90
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
This is a tread drift definitely but I wonder if any of the people fitting Lithium batteries know about flooded NiCa as an alternative. ...
NiCad was, and I think still is, a standard for large scale banks in the power industry.

"was" but not "is".


It may be worth reading this:
https://www.rpc.com.au/solar-news/13...batteries.html
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