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Old 29-06-2018, 10:38   #61
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Like they said. No battery is "safe". LiFeP04 batteries in boats have a pretty good track record. The new ones are very unlikely to go into any kind of thermal runaway event. With a good BMS, you got that covered. It would almost require a massive puncture and penetration by a metal object or a hugely massive crushing event to set one off. I do think that properly used and maintained FLA batteries are safer, but its not really much difference. YMMV.



There is a big difference in cost. Even though you get a lot more storage and a lot more life out of Lithiums of a given nominal rating, FLA comes out to be cheaper. My eight 6v 220ah golf cart batteries cost me $85/ea at Sams Club just about 4 years ago and are still going strong, so I have a 10.56 kw/hr bank for peanuts. I do have to spend a little time maintaining them, and without maintenance they would have lasted maybe two years. Lithiums would just breeze along with basically zero maintenance, hooked up to a suitable charger. My boat is 27' long and the bank is a bit bulky but the weight is no problem. My motor weighs about 30 lbs and the old iron Atomic 4 and its fuel tank are gone. FWIW I can go a lot faster than 2kt with a 5kw motor. Just sayin.



If your current ICE drives through a 2:1 gearbox, you will probably want your 5kw motor to drive the shaft at a 3:1 ratio. Most motors used for electric boats like to turn at around 3000rpm give or take, at full output power.


You CAN homebrew an electric propulsion system on the cheap. My setup including batteries cost me about $2400 or thereabouts. But you need to do your homework or you will end up doing and redoing and rerereredoing stuff to get it right and maybe still not get it right. If you have any gasoline or propane equipment aboard you cannot use a brushed motor. Keep that in mind. Basically you are looking at a couple years of study and a couple weeks of actual installation. And if you learn that much about electric propulsion, you will learn enough about FLA batteries to make them last a very long time, far longer than the naysayers will admit is possible. If you go with Lithium, though, same thing. You need to know about charging algorithms, BMS, all that stuff.
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Old 29-06-2018, 11:22   #62
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

"Even Phosphate type batteries are subject to catastrophic failure,...Tesla burning videos..."

Last time I checked, Tesla used conventional 18650 cells in their power packs, nothing with "Phosphate" chemistry. They are using other chemistries with higher power density and the typical petroleum based flammable electrolyte. (And, an active liquid heating/cooling system in the packs.) Tesla stated long ago that they chose to use hundreds of small 18650 cells in each pack partly because it is (in theory) easier to prevent and contain a catastrophic fire when the battery cells are so small.

If Tesla (or anyone) shifted to LiFePo4 chemistry, they would lose at least 10% of their battery capacity, 10% of their range and power. Since none of them have really been happy with the range and power they have to date...ain't gonna happen.

And AFAIK the fires that have made the news have generally been caused by high-speed impacts with fairly solid objects. Unless your boat is rammed by a giant narwhal, you've not likely to have that in a sailboat.

FAA, FCC, cell phones and airplanes?
There have been conflicting reports after actual tests, using actual planes. Basically those aircraft designed before mass cell phone use, were not designed to prevent mass internal interference. The newer ones are more resistant than the old ones, but if 150 passengers each turn on a cell phone (which will go to full power if it can't see a cell tower right away) that's still only some 90 watts of radio energy in the plane. Carriers will prefer to err on the side of safety and ban that--which might be a good idea. But if that much RF really could take down a jet, any idiot with a microwave oven (1000 watts and up) could probably also figure out how to focus it and bring down aircraft.
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Old 29-06-2018, 12:54   #63
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

We've had an used Lithiums onboard for all our power storage since 2014 and we love them would never ever go back to old technology now we've experienced LifePo4 far superior and if installed correctly they offer no more danger than any other battery if anything there now getting safer!
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Old 29-06-2018, 13:12   #64
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

I installed lithium batteries on our catamaran six years ago. They have been great. I wouldn’t consider going back to lead-acids.

As far as safety, one safe experience cannot prove a general rule, but we did suffer a lightning strike in 2013 which fried all the electronics on the boat, and the batteries came through that fine.

This site explains some of the issues we addressed.
Lithium Batteries
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Old 29-06-2018, 18:33   #65
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piberman View Post
Airlines usually do not allow freight shipments on lithium batteries. They can and do explode. Have never known of a lead acid battery exploding. Save shorting out the terminals. With good care kept charged a lead acid can easily last a decade. With heavy duty plates much longer. Lead acid is simple technology. It’s all in the plates. Heavier plates are always better. Drawing down below 50% severely shortens life. Besides its character building to add distilled water a few times a year.
Sorry mate your wrong.
Airlines do allow lithium batteries airfright.
They allow mobile phones lap tops etc etc.
Lithium can only explode if there being charged incorrectly.
I have a 600ah bank on my boat for 4.5 years now and to be honest ive not looked at them in 18 months.
I built a battery management system and charge of a standard 2500w charger inverter
My last were agms and lasted 5 years.

Money well worth the effort.

600ah agms approx $3200 my litium bank in total $3850

Do research correctly
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Old 29-06-2018, 18:56   #66
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Could everyone **please** stop using the term "lithium"?

Each chemistry is different, for purpose of this topic there is no value in using the umbrella term for all the different families.

The one being discussed here is LFP / LiFe / LiFePO4

And yes LFP is safe, but as of my last years' shipping experience, sea and ground only, because the stupid shipping industry and regulators lump them in with the bad-reputation more-dangerous chemistries.
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Old 29-06-2018, 18:58   #67
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Not many small vendors go ahead and risk shipping by air illegally.

Usually small quantities, the 100s of pounds required for a decent house bank gets too expensive anyway.
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Old 30-06-2018, 06:21   #68
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Airlines don’t let you turn on your cell phone either, although I’d bet that there’s not one single accident you can attribute to the interference of one being on.
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Old 01-07-2018, 14:02   #69
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

the question is too wide Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Non rechargeable lithium cells button types in cameras watches are real fire bombs but not interesting for marine power use

Lithium family is large but LiPo lithuim polymer types are the most prone to fire even when not charging or discharging
Probably due to lack of power density and low cycle lifes typicaly sub ~500 cycles not interesting for boats electric engine use

Other LiFE types are too low power density but real hard to break in use

Lithuim Ions Li-Ion types are the best power to weight density but have low C rates for charging and discharging in this time( but rapid improvements are already in the pipe line ETA the market looks to be for ~2023 ).
They are fragile cant take much abuse as it wrecks them easy.
The Li Ion cells need to be done properly and not thrown together in hap hazard ways or treated negligently

However costs are not affordable for the average joe in this time for being a marine electric engine source for large boats .
Can be interesting as domestic power source or for yaught tender or shore electric bike uses.

Cheapest way is to buy the cells and make your own pack .THE Li-Ion CELLS CANNOT BE SOLDERED they can explode from the heat and heat can wreck their chemistry .
They have to be spot welded with special spot welding units (can be home made look up youtube how to make spot welders for Li-Ion cells) or they can be fitted to specail boxxes (expensive ) The clesss abilties are limited to 1C discharge rates sometimes 2C depending on quality .Recharge times are long less than 2c rates often 0.5c rates or two hours to recharge .They need proper battery management system solutions and most off the shelf BMS dont work properly and wreck the Li-Ions.( look up google on best BMS for Li-Ions

For marine eletric power soultions in this time the best looks to be the flooded acid Golf cart 220amp 6 volt lead acid battery .They do plus ~550 deep cycles eg more than ~80% depth and plus ~1000 cycles at 50% depth. (You need to arrange the acid cant come out in heavy seas /real thick lead plates ensure long life cycles

Normal Marine 12 volt deep cycle are often sub ~200 cycles for deep cycle and sub ~1000 cycles for 50% discharging .

AGM Is a tad better than than normal marine deep cycles but real expensive

Gel cells are ultra fragile low discharge rates and low recharge rates .Note many battery suppliers call AGM a gell cels and that confuses everybody

There exists a lesser well known type of lead battery called Lead crystal battery .When the electrolyte is discharged it turns into powder type of Crystal solution . When recharged the Crystal turns into a more liquid acid form of electrolyte . The adverts claims seem to be exaggerated ~3000 deep cycles .Experts seems to indicate its not a whole lot better than AGM types and costs are orbital for lead type battery solution .The jury is out on the Lead crystal battery

There are many conversions of boats from diesel to electric or Hybrid using golf cart batteries or lead acid types including AGM.

There are very few commercial car and boat conversions using Lithium ions as the costs are off the charts typically $10 a lithuim ion cell of 2 amp makes a typical 12 volt battery with 40 amps eye watering $$$$ with its BMS and casing and marine testing etc

Last figure I saw on the subject was I think a ~9 kilowatt ~320 volt pack li-ion from a German maker was more than ~$12,000

Lithuim ion for domestic battery looks to good idea in this time the increased cycle life looks like it will return the investment in due course and have no big risk for fires compared to other lead acid solutions


Electric boat conversions tend to suggest that ~2 kilowatts of electric power can replace ball park ~8 BHP or ~ 6 kilowatt of diesel power
This is because the Diesel engines tend to be about ~7 global efficiency
The Diesel engine might be ~20 efficiency at the shaft but losses in gearbox and shafts and props often reduce this to ~ 3% to ~10% global efficiency at the water propelled .
~7 global efficiency looks to be averageefficiency with modern boats in cruising speed mode in flat calm waters .
Eletric proulasion might start with 90% efficiency at the motor with modern 3 phase motors (NOT DC BRUSHED MOTORS) but looses can bring that global effiency down to ~7% to 25% making ~15% global efficiency a good ball park number to work from using Brushless motors and lighter plastic props .
Bad quality batteries and brushed motors and cheap electronic controllers that make too much heat can reduce the global efficiency further

A typical lead acid AGM 48 volt ~150 amp electric motor system on ~24 foot sailing boat will give ~4 miles range flat out at ~6 kilowats and 5.5 knots and ~20 miles range at 2.5 knots at about ~1.5 kilowatts ( from my memory these numbers when i looked it last time )


Starting out with a 6 volt Golf cart battery solution for ~48 volt systems which should last a few years. That means that when the newwer Li-Ion with power density reaching 350 Watts per Kilogram arrive in 2023 if the prices drop enough would make it affordable to swop out the 6 volt golf cart batteries and replace them with newwer li ion solutions

Hope that helps you and the rest of the boating community
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Old 01-07-2018, 15:01   #70
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstraton View Post
I installed lithium batteries on our catamaran six years ago. They have been great. I wouldn’t consider going back to lead-acids.

As far as safety, one safe experience cannot prove a general rule, but we did suffer a lightning strike in 2013 which fried all the electronics on the boat, and the batteries came through that fine.

This site explains some of the issues we addressed.
Lithium Batteries
was a quick charge, I guess...

I like my LFPs too, really awesome energy storage.
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Old 01-07-2018, 19:49   #71
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

There are quite a few examples of Lifepo battery sets catching fire on the net.
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Old 01-07-2018, 19:54   #72
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis742 View Post
There are quite a few examples of Lifepo battery sets catching fire on the net.
Not accurate ones.
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Old 02-07-2018, 02:59   #73
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bouncycastle View Post
the question is too wide Re: Is lithium really safe ?

Non rechargeable lithium cells button types in cameras watches are real fire bombs but not interesting for marine power use

Lithium family is large but LiPo lithuim polymer types are the most prone to fire even when not charging or discharging
Probably due to lack of power density and low cycle lifes typicaly sub ~500 cycles not interesting for boats electric engine use

Other LiFE types are too low power density but real hard to break in use

Lithuim Ions Li-Ion types are the best power to weight density but have low C rates for charging and discharging in this time( but rapid improvements are already in the pipe line ETA the market looks to be for ~2023 ).
They are fragile cant take much abuse as it wrecks them easy.
The Li Ion cells need to be done properly and not thrown together in hap hazard ways or treated negligently

However costs are not affordable for the average joe in this time for being a marine electric engine source for large boats .
Can be interesting as domestic power source or for yaught tender or shore electric bike uses.

Cheapest way is to buy the cells and make your own pack .THE Li-Ion CELLS CANNOT BE SOLDERED they can explode from the heat and heat can wreck their chemistry .
They have to be spot welded with special spot welding units (can be home made look up youtube how to make spot welders for Li-Ion cells) or they can be fitted to specail boxxes (expensive ) The clesss abilties are limited to 1C discharge rates sometimes 2C depending on quality .Recharge times are long less than 2c rates often 0.5c rates or two hours to recharge .They need proper battery management system solutions and most off the shelf BMS dont work properly and wreck the Li-Ions.( look up google on best BMS for Li-Ions

For marine eletric power soultions in this time the best looks to be the flooded acid Golf cart 220amp 6 volt lead acid battery .They do plus ~550 deep cycles eg more than ~80% depth and plus ~1000 cycles at 50% depth. (You need to arrange the acid cant come out in heavy seas /real thick lead plates ensure long life cycles

Normal Marine 12 volt deep cycle are often sub ~200 cycles for deep cycle and sub ~1000 cycles for 50% discharging .

AGM Is a tad better than than normal marine deep cycles but real expensive

Gel cells are ultra fragile low discharge rates and low recharge rates .Note many battery suppliers call AGM a gell cels and that confuses everybody

There exists a lesser well known type of lead battery called Lead crystal battery .When the electrolyte is discharged it turns into powder type of Crystal solution . When recharged the Crystal turns into a more liquid acid form of electrolyte . The adverts claims seem to be exaggerated ~3000 deep cycles .Experts seems to indicate its not a whole lot better than AGM types and costs are orbital for lead type battery solution .The jury is out on the Lead crystal battery

There are many conversions of boats from diesel to electric or Hybrid using golf cart batteries or lead acid types including AGM.

There are very few commercial car and boat conversions using Lithium ions as the costs are off the charts typically $10 a lithuim ion cell of 2 amp makes a typical 12 volt battery with 40 amps eye watering $$$$ with its BMS and casing and marine testing etc

Last figure I saw on the subject was I think a ~9 kilowatt ~320 volt pack li-ion from a German maker was more than ~$12,000

Lithuim ion for domestic battery looks to good idea in this time the increased cycle life looks like it will return the investment in due course and have no big risk for fires compared to other lead acid solutions


Electric boat conversions tend to suggest that ~2 kilowatts of electric power can replace ball park ~8 BHP or ~ 6 kilowatt of diesel power
This is because the Diesel engines tend to be about ~7 global efficiency
The Diesel engine might be ~20 efficiency at the shaft but losses in gearbox and shafts and props often reduce this to ~ 3% to ~10% global efficiency at the water propelled .
~7 global efficiency looks to be averageefficiency with modern boats in cruising speed mode in flat calm waters .
Eletric proulasion might start with 90% efficiency at the motor with modern 3 phase motors (NOT DC BRUSHED MOTORS) but looses can bring that global effiency down to ~7% to 25% making ~15% global efficiency a good ball park number to work from using Brushless motors and lighter plastic props .
Bad quality batteries and brushed motors and cheap electronic controllers that make too much heat can reduce the global efficiency further

A typical lead acid AGM 48 volt ~150 amp electric motor system on ~24 foot sailing boat will give ~4 miles range flat out at ~6 kilowats and 5.5 knots and ~20 miles range at 2.5 knots at about ~1.5 kilowatts ( from my memory these numbers when i looked it last time )


Starting out with a 6 volt Golf cart battery solution for ~48 volt systems which should last a few years. That means that when the newwer Li-Ion with power density reaching 350 Watts per Kilogram arrive in 2023 if the prices drop enough would make it affordable to swop out the 6 volt golf cart batteries and replace them with newwer li ion solutions

Hope that helps you and the rest of the boating community


You realise that “ALL” lithium batteries are “lithium ion”....

Therefore, about half what you wrote there is meaningless...

Whenever anyone talks about “lithium” or “lithium ion” batteries or cells, they need to be very specific about the exact chemistry- for instance, LiFePO4, LTO, LCO and so on - there are dozens of types of lithium chemistry cells, some primary, some secondary, some can explode on their own, some can’t at all, they all have different characteristic voltages, need different care. The only thing common between them is the use of lithium ions as charge carriers.
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:36   #74
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

FYI, code requires eye wash stations in any industrial environment where lead acid batteries are used due to the high amount of explosions....

In this licensed Electrical Engineer's opinion they are safer than lead acid when paired with a proper BMS (less likely to explode and hydrogen offgas levels not within explosive levels). I'm pretty happy with battleborn batteries. They come with 3 year full replacement warranty, internal BMS, and bronze terminals. Simply drop in and change your charger settings. About the "27" is about the same price as a good 8D battery with same about of available amp hours. AKA a 200 amp hour lead acid battery only has 100 amp hours usable. With LiFePo4 a 100 amp hour rating means you have 100 amp hours usable.
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Old 02-07-2018, 07:07   #75
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Re: Is lithium really safe ?

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Originally Posted by mickt243 View Post
You realise that “ALL” lithium batteries are “lithium ion”....

Therefore, about half what you wrote there is meaningless...

Whenever anyone talks about “lithium” or “lithium ion” batteries or cells, they need to be very specific about the exact chemistry- for instance, LiFePO4, LTO, LCO and so on - there are dozens of types of lithium chemistry cells, some primary, some secondary, some can explode on their own, some can’t at all, they all have different characteristic voltages, need different care. The only thing common between them is the use of lithium ions as charge carriers.
I did start off explaining the Question was too broad in depth and scope

We all know that all Hoover are vacum cleaner and all vacum cleaners are Hoover .

In the real world of electric power where the interface with the public is the term Li-10n is used as the gereric term to signify the 18650 type cells originally less than ~2300 MHA and now mostly around or more than the ~2300 MHA regions .
Some Chinese types claim absurd amounts but so far the tests have shown the majority to be often less than the ~2300 MHA mark .

Tesla cars make cars using the Li-Ions a variation of the 18650 cells that have some superior qualities in MHA and cycle life but they are hard to buy on the open market separate from buying the entire Tesla car

The rest of he lithium family likes to class itself in different way such as the metals or chemistry they use so they add on terms like Co for cobalt Fe for iron or LiPo with Po being for polymer etc

The original Li-Ions 18650 mostly strated in laptops have also added in many new metals and carbons and all sorts to enhance the batteries but still, tend to be termed as Li-Ion in the marketing ploy that show Li-Ions of the 18650 type to be the highest power density per kilogram of the lithum families .

The real question the original poster should have been more like is Lithium Io 18650 types of battery safe compared to other rechargeable batteries like LiFe family with or without titanium , LiFePO4, LTO, LCO and the myriad of new families that appear every day

Just to itemize the various Li-Ions 18650 type and their changing chemistry mixes would be thesis on Lithuim 18650 cells

Each 18650 Li-Ion cell comes with it own spec sheets and this sample is Sanyo 2600MHA

https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-sp...R18650-26F.pdf

and forums on the same cell explain why the cell isnt good for high power uses due to its button shape
https://www.reddit.com/r/RBA/comment...mah_amp_limit/

There is myriad of different 18650 cells each with its own spec sheet to many to cover in this thread .

So to find just Lithium ion 18650 type cells that can perform correctly in high power requires a lot of homework which this thread cant possibly cover

So i have to shorten the story to general pointers
I merely try to explain Li-Ion 18650 cells and the most likey successful uses to date have been in low power requirements with few exception like Tesla cars which has billions to sort out any problems where you uses thousands of 18650 format type cells to drive heavy cars .

The other Lithuim family of cells often have much less power density per Kilogram
Also they and can vary a lot in variables abilities to catch fire or be robust or recharge and discharge rapidly but cost benefit cycle life weight to pwer ratios are often not interesting when compared to cheaper well known solutions like Flooded lead acid Golf cart battery solutions

The unobtainable Li-Ions us joe soaps might get to see and purchase are in this youtube ( below )where they explain all the new chemical tricks they are using to upgrade the older style 1850 Li-Ions.
The average joe will have melt down trying to understand the Li-Ion terms but is shows the future isnt here just yet but might arrive in ~2023

The Battery Revolution. End of Gasoline?




In the video they explain that 18650 battery cells are about 250 watts per kilogram and newer Tesla version 18750 type cells ( slightly bigger than 18650 ) hope to reach soon ~350 watts per kilogram . What they dont mention is the magic number to exceed is ~400 watts per Kilogram as that 400 number equals fuel in power density output in terms of weight to power ratios

In the mean time we still play with lead battery solutions or Li-ions 18650 type or go into other lithium families or even look to older solutions like NiMH Nickel methal battery solutions


Sorry if I confused anybody not being specific enough with Hoover versus vacum cleaners but just tried to keep to general pointers without to try to get into too many specifics that can put many to sleep

Simple Li-Ion 18650 cells for domestic power use possible achievable for amateurs forum threads exist on similar projects like electric bike batteries or car battery replacement projects. benefits are costs over time can be cheaper than lead acid solutions

Li-Ions 18650 for marine engine use replacement probably not achievable in this time for amateurs as few examples and fewer Forum threads exist on how to achieve this .Risks to not get good return in investment very high

Lead acid 6 volt 220 amp golf cart FLA lead batteries or 12volt AGM Lead acid battery for replacing marine engine use very achievable for many amateurs with many hundreds of threads and forums on the subject . Lower capital outlay costs can override the slightly higher running costs compared to Lithuim ion 18650 solutions

Outside of these solutions above there is less benefits to cost power ratio available in this time and less forum threads to look at to help make the projects like Marine engine replacement work so well


Hope that helps all the boating community
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