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Old 06-12-2015, 06:54   #1
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IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Speaking with a few people that have installed Lithium Iron (not ion) Phosphate batteries, there is a huge weight savings, decrease in harmful contaminants and chance of danger. I googled it and found this

12V 100Ah,StarkPower 'UltraEnergy" Lithium Ion Battery (LiFePO) Energy Storage Battery

"12V 100Ah Lithium-ion battery equals the performance of a 12V ~400Ah lead acid when using 1hr discharge rate and lower depth of discharge with longer life. "
weights 28lbs, life cycle 2000 at 80% depth of discharge and they recharge fast as $%^
I guess this is using Peukurt? scale, what am I missing, is it truly the same amp hours, as 240 lbs of deep cycle golf cart batteries? at barely 2x the price?
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:53   #2
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

They can be discharged deeper than lead acid without damage giving you more effective capacity with less weight.

LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:24   #3
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

They may well one day simply replace LA batteries, although due I believe to cost, they haven't yet.
Sort of like the hard drive was supposed to disappear years ago, but is still with us


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Old 06-12-2015, 08:24   #4
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
Speaking with a few people that have installed Lithium Iron (not ion) Phosphate batteries, there is a huge weight savings, decrease in harmful contaminants and chance of danger. I googled it and found this

12V 100Ah,StarkPower 'UltraEnergy" Lithium Ion Battery (LiFePO) Energy Storage Battery

"12V 100Ah Lithium-ion battery equals the performance of a 12V ~400Ah lead acid when using 1hr discharge rate and lower depth of discharge with longer life. "
weights 28lbs, life cycle 2000 at 80% depth of discharge and they recharge fast as $%^
I guess this is using Peukurt? scale, what am I missing, is it truly the same amp hours, as 240 lbs of deep cycle golf cart batteries? at barely 2x the price?
What you are missing is that these are really not a suitable batteries for a cruising boat. The built in BMS and relays are really rather pathetic for this use, a 50A max charge rate is pathetic for this type of use, max discharge of 100A is a pathetic for this type of use, max impulse current of 300A is also pathetic, for this type use..

What happens to your alt when you send the into a BMS disconnect (load dump)? Parallel batteries to build capacity with an internal BMS? What happens when your windlass, starter, electric winches or inverter toasts the Lego's level, lightweight contactor hidden inside the sealed plastic box...?

For less than the cost of a Mickey Moused "drop in" LFP you could build a 100Ah CALB prismatic battery ($508.00 for 4cells) with a better BMS, much better contractors, dual buses (charge and loads), and proper alternator load dump protection capability.

The only pre-built LFP systems worth anything for marine applications come from companies designing specifically for such uses but they are not inexpensive... If you want to drop one of those in a bass boat, it may be worth the risk, but for a cruising boat.

LiFeP04 is one of the safest Li battery technologies but the implementation of the BMS and protection systems on boats does matter. LFP on a boat should be designed as a system, not a drop in battery..
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:06   #5
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

......and in English? BMS = battery management system? What relays? What are you meaning (in English, please) when you write about iimpulse current?
Why can you not drop these batteries in as a replacement for more traditional batteries? What happens to the alternator when a conventional battery arrangement is used?
I sould like to understand more of what you are stating, please. Its pretty likely others shall to. Why do you consider a 100A discharge pathetic? Unless we are using our windlass, this seems more than adequate. I agree that 50A charge rate is sad - we have over a 1000watts of solar alone.
"LFP you could build a 100Ah CALB prismatic battery ($508.00 for 4cells) with a better BMS, much better contractors, dual buses (charge and loads), and proper alternator load dump protection capability."
Acronyms!! English, PLEASE. When you say contractors do you mean contractors or contactors or both?
Many thanks.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
What you are missing is that these are really not a suitable batteries for a cruising boat. The built in BMS and relays are really rather pathetic for this use, a 50A max charge rate is pathetic for this type of use, max discharge of 100A is a pathetic for this type of use, max impulse current of 300A is also pathetic, for this type use..

What happens to your alt when you send the into a BMS disconnect (load dump)? Parallel batteries to build capacity with an internal BMS? What happens when your windlass, starter, electric winches or inverter toasts the Lego's level, lightweight contactor hidden inside the sealed plastic box...?

For less than the cost of a Mickey Moused "drop in" LFP you could build a 100Ah CALB prismatic battery ($508.00 for 4cells) with a better BMS, much better contractors, dual buses (charge and loads), and proper alternator load dump protection capability.

The only pre-built LFP systems worth anything for marine applications come from companies designing specifically for such uses but they are not inexpensive... If you want to drop one of those in a bass boat, it may be worth the risk, but for a cruising boat.

LiFeP04 is one of the safest Li battery technologies but the implementation of the BMS and protection systems on boats does matter. LFP on a boat should be designed as a system, not a drop in battery..
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:16   #6
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
What you are missing is that these are really not a suitable batteries for a cruising boat. The built in BMS and relays are really rather pathetic for this use, a 50A max charge rate is pathetic for this type of use, max discharge of 100A is a pathetic for this type of use, max impulse current of 300A is also pathetic, for this type use..

What happens to your alt when you send the into a BMS disconnect (load dump)? Parallel batteries to build capacity with an internal BMS? What happens when your windlass, starter, electric winches or inverter toasts the Lego's level, lightweight contactor hidden inside the sealed plastic box...?

For less than the cost of a Mickey Moused "drop in" LFP you could build a 100Ah CALB prismatic battery ($508.00 for 4cells) with a better BMS, much better contractors, dual buses (charge and loads), and proper alternator load dump protection capability.

The only pre-built LFP systems worth anything for marine applications come from companies designing specifically for such uses but they are not inexpensive... If you want to drop one of those in a bass boat, it may be worth the risk, but for a cruising boat.

LiFeP04 is one of the safest Li battery technologies but the implementation of the BMS and protection systems on boats does matter. LFP on a boat should be designed as a system, not a drop in battery..
You really didn't answer the question, are you saying yes lithium iron phosphate batteries are better lighter recharge faster, And 100ah in one of them is the same as 400ah in a fla battery, just this one I posted isnt good? Or are you saying something else?


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Old 06-12-2015, 11:05   #7
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

This is where maybe a search would be in order, your questions and many more have been asked and answered a few time in the recent past


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Old 06-12-2015, 11:11   #8
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
You really didn't answer the question, are you saying yes lithium iron phosphate batteries are better lighter recharge faster, And 100ah in one of them is the same as 400ah in a fla battery, just this one I posted isnt good? Or are you saying something else?


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the problem is that lifepo batteries are better than lead-acid in every single catagory except two. They have more usable capacity, weigh less, can accept faster charging, don't require water, etc. But those two problems are massive ones that aren't even close to being solved yet.

First lifepo'so are substantially more expensive. This will likely change over time, but it isn't solved yet.

Second is battery management. Lead-Acid is pretty easy, hook up a smart charger to one battery or 20 and the bank will charge evenly across all the cells. LIFEPO however won't. Every since cell, not just each battery, but every cell, really needs to be charged seperatly and at its own rate. The management system to accomplish this is called a BMS.

So far at least there isn't a drop in lifepo system on the market that is as simple to use as a FLA. If you are a hobbyist sure you can make them work, but they aren't really ready for prime time yet.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:21   #9
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Bruce has a new system:

OPE-Li3 Marine Lithium Battery Systems - Bruce Schwab Energy Systems
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:37   #10
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

I would not rush to get more bang-4-my buck with Lithium batteries. We do not need to scare our great lead-acid manufacturers by talking about switching----at least NOT YET. Lead acid is about as friendly as batteries get (in the capacities we need aboard).
I get up to 9 years out of my 4 x 6v Trojans (and they are safe unless severely abused). Abuse a Lithium battery and you may not need batteries ever again!
I had one battery explode in my face (lead acid) in 2008 in Quebec City-it WAS my own fault. I had just fully charged the batteries (there was explosive hydrogen within the battery) and while removing the cables to exchange one battery a cable fell on another battery and shorted. The whole top of the battery exploded and left no piece bigger than 1 x 2 inches. It totally lacerated the top of my hand. Acid burns are nasty! A battery engineer told me that I was lucky it was not a lithium battery because I would probably have had a big fire on board.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/tdg/lithium...oods-1162.html

Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

http://www.rechargebatteries.org/wp-...-Recharge-.pdf
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:42   #11
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Except there would not have been explosive hydrogen gas venting and in a lithium battery...

Chris

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.... A battery engineer told me that I was lucky it was not a lithium battery because I would probably have had a big fire on board.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/tdg/lithium...oods-1162.html

Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

http://www.rechargebatteries.org/wp-...-Recharge-.pdf
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:46   #12
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Mainsail is one of the folks here who give their time and energy to help others, and you are talking to him like he did you a dis-service. Just because you do not yet know the lingo used around a technology, or some basic electrical system terms. He did write in English. I respectfully suggest that you spend some time reading the very large LIFEPO4 thread here, before asking for somebody to spoon feed it to you. You will be much better off then just taking what one person tells you as the gospel, and running with it.

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
......and in English? BMS = battery management system? What relays? What are you meaning (in English, please) when you write about iimpulse current?
Why can you not drop these batteries in as a replacement for more traditional batteries? What happens to the alternator when a conventional battery arrangement is used?
I sould like to understand more of what you are stating, please. Its pretty likely others shall to. Why do you consider a 100A discharge pathetic? Unless we are using our windlass, this seems more than adequate. I agree that 50A charge rate is sad - we have over a 1000watts of solar alone.
"LFP you could build a 100Ah CALB prismatic battery ($508.00 for 4cells) with a better BMS, much better contractors, dual buses (charge and loads), and proper alternator load dump protection capability."
Acronyms!! English, PLEASE. When you say contractors do you mean contractors or contactors or both?
Many thanks.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:46   #13
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

This might provide some insight: DIY Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries (LiFePO4) for Marine Applications

A Google search will provide the entire article.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:52   #14
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

"the problem is that lifepo batteries are better than lead-acid in every single catagory except two."
Eh, you might want to reconsider and say THREE categories.
When and if a lithium-anything battery decides to combust, it may do so rather violently and without warning. And even the best, from the best brands, installed by the best designers and engineers, DO combust far more often than conventional lead acid batteries. The UN and the IAPA keep discussing how or whether they'll have to restrict or ban air shipments entirely, because they're getting tired of aircraft catching fire from batteries "properly" shipped in the cargo holds. Not being used, just being shipped.
And if a lithium battery DOES catch fire...I know LiFePo is the only type that doesn't use a flammable electrolyte, but can a conventional extinguisher put that out? It won't phase any of the other lithium types.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:10   #15
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

I installed a 500 AH LiFePo4 battery last year in my boat and it is as you say worth 1,000 - 1500 AH battery bank of LA, AGM, Gel or SLA (any Lead Acid System) depending on how you use them and what kind of BMS/PCM/PCB (Battery Management System,Protection Control Module/Protection Control Board) you have installed with it.

The problem that I have run into is not with the engine alternator or battery charger. It is with the SCC Solar Charge Controller 3024I that I had and upgraded to include a battery management system display IPN Proremote. It doesn't want or I haven't been able get it to, to charge the battery properly. The manufacturer suggests that it is the PCB that I have that is limiting it but having dealt with lots of service departments and I understand putting it off on the other guys system.
I can charge it fully with the engine alternator smart regulator MC614. The other problem is the PCB wasn't supplied properly and the comments that were made about them is correct in my case and I run the windlass off the starter battery (70 AH) and start the main engine off of it only. If the starter battery is down I switch to ALL and let the house bank charge it for ten minutes and then switch back and start the engine.
I have managed to live with it and if I move the boat from anchorage to anchorage it makes up what the solar panel SCC doesn't. But I am still looking for answers that don't include a lot of cash.

I have replaced batteries moving to 790 AH AGMs first in the area that the boat is in and then replaced those moving to 500 AH LiFePo4 and it cost me less to have the LiFePo4 in a steel case flown in than to have the AGMs shipped to me.
I purchased the LiFePo4 directly from China and the AGMs came from Canada as they were L16 models. The boat is in SE Asia.

I wouldn't be without the LiFePo4 battery and think they are great but I would be very careful next time from whom I purchase them from. The main problem was communications with the Chinese manufacturer that didn't understand my requirements and misinterpreted my answers to their questions.
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