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Old 07-12-2015, 12:08   #61
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

My dock neighbour and good friend is one of the worlds top EE's. He just retired last month as President of IEEE. His opinion ..... no lithium batteries should be installed in a boat unless you have at least as much knowledge as Mainesail and the systems are not yet ready for installation by laymen.
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Old 07-12-2015, 12:27   #62
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

I know I may take a lot of criticism from this but a 12V prismatic battery without a BMS is a viable option in some cases. It depends on how you use your boat. I use a 20AH one in a small boat for recharging cell phones and anchor light. I have no way to recharge it on the boat and take it home to recharge after use. This works well for trips of up to a week. You do need to monitor or check each cell voltage to make sure you don't over discharge it. For weekend use it requires recharging every three or four weeks and it's not overly effected by not being kept fully charged. It's so light that taking it home to recharge is not a problem. This has been a very effective and cost efficient solution for me. The charger I use was recommended by MaineSail and is a Volteq HY 3010 EX. Adjustable Switching DC Power Supply HY3010EX 30V 10A Over Voltage Over Current Protection - Volteq - Reliable Regulated Variable DC Power Supplies
I have no interest in Volteq or the seller.
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Old 07-12-2015, 13:03   #63
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
My dock neighbour and good friend is one of the worlds top EE's. He just retired last month as President of IEEE. His opinion ..... no lithium batteries should be installed in a boat unless you have at least as much knowledge as Mainesail and the systems are not yet ready for installation by laymen.
Yap, but you know... the US is homeland to the DIY mantra!

Applause to you, and cheapeau to the IEEE president from an Italian mechanical engineer :-)


@MacDonald is showing in real terms what LiFePo batteries are good at, as of now:

5-20Ah applications, light, transportable, installed close to utilities and not in bilge, with soft/occasional recharging (wind/solar)
A very smart application, which deteriorates in so far as a solo-lithium massive banks are considered.
To be thought out carefully for an electric-driven design, yet quite a heavy complication on a classic boat frame
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Old 07-12-2015, 15:43   #64
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

[QUOTE=TheThunderbird;1980926
Lifepo can switch on your big engine with a 18Ah battery, because their charge reach 900A, as much as on a LA 80Ah battery.
[/QUOTE]

You appear to be comparing Lithium "Pulse Hot Cranking Amps" with Lead Acid "Cold Cranking Amps".

They are two totally different measures.
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Old 07-12-2015, 16:38   #65
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

There may be totally different meaning electrically, but what we are interested here in, is the mechanical effect on the engine, which is a Torque and a speed of rotation, or Power, for even a fraction of a second.

Something which sounds quite mechaNical, factual, and very apt to be weighed and kicked off.

This is enough to make any engine happy

I hate "personalization" on a blog. I never use the expression "you" and never do. We have no interest in people here, but in concepts, with all respect
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Old 07-12-2015, 16:46   #66
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Be ready to be thrown at several Lithium-stones by the LiFePo league.

" Who is without lithium battery may throw a lithium stone."
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Old 07-12-2015, 21:26   #67
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

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We speak LiFePo here
If flushed by salt water, the may get on fire and release acid, and possibly explode. I am not familiar with the details , but to me it is enough to get cautious on matter. I am not interested in checking HOW likely this event may occur.
Not a product to blindly drop in in place of another battery.
And a boat not a lab where to run tests
Not even a lab where to operate the complex machinery needed to correctly run cycles
Main sail was adamant on it.

If you feel happy to categorize people without any evidence of the contrary , do enjoy that sickness alone, please, not in public
Maybe you want to tell them in public that Lithium is a well established technology, prone to no hassle, complication, no need of careful monitoring, fully reliable and outstandingly cheap...(!??).

I see the number of EE PhD.s on the increase.... yes, you all grab the chemistry behind it, and further more (!? Not a need, we need to be well advised users only)

How many batteries need to be bought for getting that Doctorate?
Ouch, I see that the qualification was "having bought/used some"

Yap, I am not qualified yet
PS

Actually, I praise the contribute of a couple of Manufacturers here, who were quite explicit in recognizing that they are still under serious development of both technology and applications.
No easy way at its infancy, and with a not so much fast-increasing customer basis

We can tell you're not qualified yet.

So if you're so worried about LiFePo4, stick with the old technology, flooded lead acid.

Happy trails to you.
Edit: I'll let you know if my boat catches fire from its Lithium Phosphate cells (now in service for approx 3 years with solar and 24/7 fridge and other loads without any shore power until last month in the PNW. (Not enough sun because of global warming, ya know )
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Old 07-12-2015, 22:32   #68
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

iceman-
" If I put them on board, I would make a proper battery cage that was well ventilated and fire proof."
There's a lot of confusion about "lithium" batteries. Mainly because there is no such thing as a simple "lithium" battery. The properties of lithium metal batteries, which are used as primary non-rechargeable batteries, are VASTLY different from lithium [sic] rechargeable batteries, and among those, the properties can also be very different, especially LiFePO4, which are the only type using a water-based electrolyte, which makes them weaker than all the other chemistries, but also the only variant that does not use a flammable electrolyte. Making them very different as fire risks.


As for protective containers and venting...even Boeing and "all the king's men" couldn't figure out any way to make their version less risky, except by using a heavy titanium battery case (which you could afford, if you sold your boat) and a similar rugged vent system to the external atmosphere.


There are a plethora of published papers, from sources like the National Fire Prevention Association, NASA scientists/labs, various members of the airline community, and even the UN, all detailing specific risks of specific types. Among other things they are finding that no matter what you do, when you have a more energetic battery, there's more energy stored in a smaller place--and that makes it more of a risk for fire and explosion. Especially when everyone making them wants to build them smaller and lighter with less protection AND faster cheaper production methods.


It may take six hours to get a basic education on where things stand today, but the research is out there. The question being, do you really want a tiger in your tank? Under any circumstances?
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Old 07-12-2015, 22:54   #69
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Thunderbird-
"We speak LiFePo here
If flushed by salt water, the may get on fire and release acid, and possibly explode."
Nope. LiFePo batteries are sealed batteries. If you immerse them in salt water, all you do is create a high-resistance short circuit by the salt water connecting the two terminals. It should be way, way, less than what is needed to create a battery overheating and catching on fire. unlike conventional wet lead acid batteries, infamous from service on submarines, where any accumulation of salt water flooding the battery compartments released free chlorine gas and killed the crew, most horribly.


Lucia-
The electrolyte in LiFePO4 batteries, contrary to whatever you have heard, is repeatedly stated by multiple manufacturers and distributers to be water based, and NOT at all the same as all the other chemistries. Maybe they all lied to me, I don't plan to cut apart a dozen batteries to find out.
Yes, the quality or lack thereof, especially in Chinese clones, is a problem. But Lithium-ion 18650 cells, the type used in most laptops and some electric cars, have also had major recalls because of manufacturing defects leading to fires and explosions. And one of those was from Sony. Not Chinese, not cheap. Nor were the batteries Boeing was using in their jetliners.


No two manufacturers can even agree on what a "proper" charging profile might be. Lithium of any sort, from any source? Absolutely great, if it meets your needs. But for the casual user? Hell no, they'd be safer buying a nuclear reactor for their energy needs. (Oh, yes, the Chinese sell pebble-bed reactors that are apparently the finest in the world, and possibly the safest too.)


Until someone can figure out how to make "lithium" plug-n-play and prove they can do so SAFELY...pass the marshmallows. You know, in case there's a fire to roast them over.
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Old 08-12-2015, 04:04   #70
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

There is very likely a Pb battery on fire somewhere in the world, right now. However it won't make the news as the incident lacks the word "lithium".

Plug & play, modular, dual-bus, watertight flame-resistant cases & sealed BMS...check all those off. It has taken years to get there, and they aren't cheap, but that's what we sell now.

Yes, you can do a DIY Li battery that may work just fine and not cost much. However the risks are higher (to varying degrees...pun intended...) depending your electrical skill level and dedication. Or you can bite the bullet and buy a system where many years of experience and investment have created Li systems specifically for marine house banks. I think either end of the spectrum works, however less so for most everything in between...
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Old 08-12-2015, 19:57   #71
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

My answer to this very simple question is NO!

There are many other NEW developments going on now that will make us look back at Lead Acid batteries and even LiFePO4 and laugh. This thought comes from the MD of the UK company supplying electric systems for major US military hardware. They specifically advise against using Lithium batteries.

Don't expect more details because most of these ideas are top secret.
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Old 08-12-2015, 20:07   #72
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

"There is very likely a Pb battery on fire somewhere in the world, right now."
Anything is possible, however. Some 10,000 wet lead batteries, mainly car batteries, explode while being jump-started every year in the US, causing eye damage and hospital care, at least ER response.
But since the electrolyte is water based, it is not flammable. And the metal plates are not flammable. And the plastic or rubber cases, while flammable, need some encouragement to remain that way. In general, any thermal condition will boil out the electrolyte, which breaks the circuit, which ends the thermal runaway.
The bigger problem, and the reason that wet lead batteries are the continuing discussion of industry BANS outright, is that emergency responders are being injured when responding to crash scenes where that battery acid has been slung all around.


A very different set of problems from "Oh gee, that battery just burnt up our half billion dollar airliner." Among lesser problems.
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Old 08-12-2015, 20:09   #73
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

I think the salient point in this discussion is that if you have to ask questions about lithium battery systems ..... you are not ready to have them in your boat !
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Old 08-12-2015, 20:33   #74
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

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I think the salient point in this discussion is that if you have to ask questions about lithium battery systems ..... you are not ready to have them in your boat !
Well its not like no one ever asked a question on LA batteries

And I only seen ten or dozen burst, burnt or otherwise destroyed LA batteries. And numerous bad installations.
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Old 08-12-2015, 21:10   #75
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

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Well its not like no one ever asked a question on LA batteries

And I only seen ten or dozen burst, burnt or otherwise destroyed LA batteries. And numerous bad installations.
Sorry, don't get it ..... facetious, sarcastic or something else ?
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