IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

[witzgall]

That is like saying all cars are death fire traps, just look at the Pinto....


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[witzgall]

I was responding to boat poker, but wow, thunderbird, you are way, way off base. Do you have experience using lithium on a boat? If you do, please relay what you have found.

Chris


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[StuM]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Lithium batteries can explode, mainly into salt water or overcharging
Ancillary systems are more expensive than traditional
Batteries per se cost me 4X-5X a mix of GEL/lead acid batteries, in 2014

Using Lithium batteries for storing capacity is insane.

Using them for rapid charge/discharge, and electric traction, is good (Tesla)
A 18Ah lithium battery is equivalent to a 80/100Ah traditional battery, in terms of delivering 900Ah starting impulse.
Overall, too expensive, dangerous, prone to create problems, but the future changes faster then we imagine.

What's a 900Ah starting pulse?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Using Lithium batteries for storing capacity is insane.

Using them for rapid charge/discharge, and electric traction, is good (Tesla)

So Tesla's don't use Lithium batteries for storage? I wonder where they get the energy from when they are 100 miles from their last recharge.

[navy davy]

carbon foam batteries "Firefly Oasis"

[doublewide]

Funny, but this subject came up in another (private) forum recently. One of our sister ships is very enthusiastic about their Li-FePO4 system. With their boat name redacted, here is what they wrote. The blog reference is very good.

"An outline of what I have onboard (more details to come later):
* 800AH of CALB 400 Lithium. This replaces my 780AH of LA, removed 80KG of
weight, and fits with a small modification to the existing battery case.
* 1,300 watts of solar, with two controllers Outback
and Morningstar
* We now have plenty of power, and run everything on the boat off the inverter
(water maker, hot water, ice maker, washer dryer, AC, etc). We’ve not used the
genset in 3 months.
Critical considerations:
* No matter what a Lithium vendor will tell you, you should not use standard 14.4v
LA charging profiles.
* Alternator charging must be regulated and have voltage sensing. We charge to
13.8v. There is an elegant solution for the Volvo D240.
* All other charging sources you must have the ability to control the charging
voltage. All of mine are set (solar, wind, genset) to 13.8v.
* Charging to 13.8v will provide about 98% of full charge and keep you out of the
upper knee
* It is important to use a BMS for regulating the cell charge
Options for Lithium:
* Lithionics USA the
best ‘drop in’ solution for Lithium on a boat. Very Expensive.
* Genasun USA The
second best ‘drop in’ solution. Very expensive. (Genasun
is now sourcing from Lithionics the batteries vs CALB)
* Mastervolt or Victron IMO,
not worth the cost compared to Lithionics.
* DIY Reasonable
cost, but lots of legwork. That was my solution. All in and
installed for about $4,500USD for 800ah Lithium.
Biggest Insight:
* If I would have the chance to ‘do over’ on my boat, I would skip the genset, add
800ah of Lithium, build a well designed solar configuration for 1.2kw of solar on
bimini and arch ( vs. the current molds), and have two inverter/charges in parallel.
This would provide all the power we need with no moving parts, diesel, etc,
remove 200+kg of weight and provide a clean, simple and usable energy solution
for long term cruising.
* Don’t get confused with other Lithium battery chemistries. Boeing as an example
uses a higher density chemistry for their batteries, that are prone to fire if not
properly charged. LiFePO4 are a lot safer chemistry, and with proper redundant
systems onboard a good option for boats. There are more and more boats in the
S Pacific that we are sailing with moving to or already 100% LiFePO4.
* Further background reading, here is a good blog: PBase.com
mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats&page=1

[OceanPlanet]

Doublewide, note that Genasun isn't sourcing cells from Lithionics. Rather, as Genasun is focusing more on their solar controller division, OceanPlanet Energy is having a new plug & play, modular, dual-bus BMS system made to our specs by Lithionics.

We (OPE) have been the master distributor for Genasun GLi for many years, and Genasun has allowed us to take what we have learned from them to Lithionics to create (IMHO) the best BMS system for marine house banks.

For example, a key feature (of many) of the new system is that all the BMS components are sealed from water. Too much to go into here however we are very excited about what we have created together with Lithionics.

[Bulawayo]

Many thanks, Quickbeam. I am reaching the point whereby new batteries are becoming a fixation and this technology is very interesting to me - for many reasons, not least the weight. I really want/need to understand the influencing factors.

Originally Posted by Quickbeam

Each technology has it's own jargon/argot. If we want to understand the technology we have to either become familiar with the new language, or wait until it becomes more mainstream.
People used to think the devil was inside of the copper electric wires in houses a century ago. Now we are as used to having electricity as plentiful as water in our boats and homes.
Lithium battery systems have reached the point where many boats can use them to advantage. But like any change, the effect on the entire system, and the way we use the system needs to be adjusted. Location, cable sizing, charging, components and use need to be carefully evaluated.
Battery management systems for lithium batteries are different than those used in lead acid. They are also evolving rapidly. Companies like ReVision marine are using technology several generations beyond what is found in the 787. That still puts it where I would say the line between bleeding and leading edge sits for me.
By the time the batteries on our own boat need to be replaced, lithium cells may be a simple choice. I am working on a large power boat where the choice may go in favor of lithium. It's has been a lively discussion.
Since this topic is dear to us, let's try to stay on it. Those of us who are fluent with the new terms might want to add a glossary (or link to a glossary) in each relevant thread for people who are new to, but interested in this topic.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by northiceman

I do , however, use lithium batteries in my model airplanes and mainly because my ass is not in those planes ! AND, I charge those "buggers" in properly certified lithium explosive proof charge bags. They say this about charging lithium batteries for model planes --> DO NOT CHARGE LITHIUM BATTERIES UNATTENDED

The Lithium batteries used in model airplanes are very different from the ones proposed for use in a boat. In model airplanes you want to have the absolute best in energy density, and this is achieved by using Lithium Cobalt in the positive electrode. These batteries have the best energy per weight, but have indeed issues, which is why the local model airplane club here even has a bunker where they charge the batteries.

The batteries proposed here as a replacement for LA are based on Lithium Iron PHosphate. These don't present the thermal stability issues Lithium Cobalt does, so the risks associated with model airplane batteries don't apply here. All the data I have seen is that properly managed they do not propose a bigger risk on board a yacht then LA does.

[witzgall]

Indeed, I also have come to the same conclusion, that LIFEPO4, installed and managed well, is safer than any lead acid chemistry.

I also think that there are other Lithium chemistries that have a potential for safe operation on a boat. This does not include lithium cobalt, but some of the mixes that are now being used in automobiles.


Chris

Originally Posted by K_V_B

All the data I have seen is that properly managed they do not propose a bigger risk on board a yacht then LA does.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

All the data I have seen is that properly managed they do not propose a bigger risk on board a yacht then LA does.

I agree, that is the key ... "properly managed". Unfortunately anyone can buy the cells and build their own dangerous system like the one in photo below. The two stainless steel boxes contain lithium (chemistry not known) batteries connected in parallel with two AGM (yellow) batteries with connections wrapped in white duct tape. There is NO BMS ! I have seen several such installations on boats I have surveyed and am almost at the point of believing sales of these products should be restricted.

[a64pilot]

Guy's comparing Li-Po to Life-Po batteries is a lot like comparing gasoline to Diesel.
Yes they perform exactly the same job, even come from the same source and have very similar components, but truly are very different, same with the batteries.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I agree, that is the key ... "properly managed". Unfortunately anyone can buy the cells and build their own dangerous system like the one in photo below. The two stainless steel boxes contain lithium (chemistry not known) batteries connected in parallel with two AGM (yellow) batteries with connections wrapped in white duct tape. There is NO BMS ! I have seen several such installations on boats I have surveyed and am almost at the point of believing sales of these products should be restricted.

Yikes...

[Bulawayo]

Hi Doublewide - favour please.......can you check the link as it doesnt appear to work? I am very keen to learn about this subject as I shall be needing new batteries in the next few months. Many thanks.

Originally Posted by doublewide

Funny, but this subject came up in another (private) forum recently. One of our sister ships is very enthusiastic about their Li-FePO4 system. With their boat name redacted, here is what they wrote. The blog reference is very good.

"An outline of what I have onboard (more details to come later):
* 800AH of CALB 400 Lithium. This replaces my 780AH of LA, removed 80KG of
weight, and fits with a small modification to the existing battery case.
* 1,300 watts of solar, with two controllers Outback
and Morningstar
* We now have plenty of power, and run everything on the boat off the inverter
(water maker, hot water, ice maker, washer dryer, AC, etc). We’ve not used the
genset in 3 months.
Critical considerations:
* No matter what a Lithium vendor will tell you, you should not use standard 14.4v
LA charging profiles.
* Alternator charging must be regulated and have voltage sensing. We charge to
13.8v. There is an elegant solution for the Volvo D240.
* All other charging sources you must have the ability to control the charging
voltage. All of mine are set (solar, wind, genset) to 13.8v.
* Charging to 13.8v will provide about 98% of full charge and keep you out of the
upper knee
* It is important to use a BMS for regulating the cell charge
Options for Lithium:
* Lithionics USA the
best ‘drop in’ solution for Lithium on a boat. Very Expensive.
* Genasun USA The
second best ‘drop in’ solution. Very expensive. (Genasun
is now sourcing from Lithionics the batteries vs CALB)
* Mastervolt or Victron IMO,
not worth the cost compared to Lithionics.
* DIY Reasonable
cost, but lots of legwork. That was my solution. All in and
installed for about $4,500USD for 800ah Lithium.
Biggest Insight:
* If I would have the chance to ‘do over’ on my boat, I would skip the genset, add
800ah of Lithium, build a well designed solar configuration for 1.2kw of solar on
bimini and arch ( vs. the current molds), and have two inverter/charges in parallel.
This would provide all the power we need with no moving parts, diesel, etc,
remove 200+kg of weight and provide a clean, simple and usable energy solution
for long term cruising.
* Don’t get confused with other Lithium battery chemistries. Boeing as an example
uses a higher density chemistry for their batteries, that are prone to fire if not
properly charged. LiFePO4 are a lot safer chemistry, and with proper redundant
systems onboard a good option for boats. There are more and more boats in the
S Pacific that we are sailing with moving to or already 100% LiFePO4.
* Further background reading, here is a good blog: PBase.com
mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats&page=1

[Bulawayo]

Stu, I have also been trying to figure out this terminology.
I think it might be similar to CCA (cold cranking amps) - of course I might be totally wrong but no-one is very forthcoming about this new super top secret language.
Best regards.

Originally Posted by StuM

What's a 900Ah starting pulse?