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Old 06-12-2015, 12:37   #16
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

The "hidden" costs of changing to a different battery technology can be dis-satisfying to say the least. Heck-if you simply change the post config/placement on a "regular" type battery you are probably looking at cost to re-do the cable lengths and end fittings. I am NOT "pushing" lead acid technology, just being very very careful when I'm promised LOTS of new good things about something. Change sometimes is good but with change there comes cost. Plan change well before before committing to it. Some of those variables are the cabling, the solar charge controller, the monitoring equipment, the alternator, the breakers/fuses, the charge parameters of all chargers and the battery cage(s).
I do , however, use lithium batteries in my model airplanes and mainly because my ass is not in those planes ! AND, I charge those "buggers" in properly certified lithium explosive proof charge bags. They say this about charging lithium batteries for model planes --> DO NOT CHARGE LITHIUM BATTERIES UNATTENDED
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:58   #17
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Oh-don't want to "tickle" anyone here but on the CHANGE theme - a lot of people are running around these days consuming VITAMINS. We have all been promised good things if we take vitamins (especially in pill form). Well, NASA gives only one vitamin to astronauts - vitamin D. and thats because the space vehicles are "insulated" against harmful amounts of ultraviolet rays. BTW-ultraviolet reacts with the cholesterol in our skin to produce vitamin D. Two points here - who wudda known that we DO NOT need to take vitamins (probably only NASA)....AND...it pays to look at something we are promised in detail before comitting. So I'm gonna keep eating good food (no vitamins) and keep using my lead acid batteries. You rich gals/guys can go buy them new xpensive batteries and enjoy them. :>)
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Old 06-12-2015, 13:38   #18
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

No Witzgall - not at all. Read my posting again. Is it really so hard to provide an explanation of the acronyms? Do we really have to start searching for something we dont even know exists? When someone is familar with a subject then the acronyms can flow without the realisation that others may not be as familiar. Of course, some others shall understand completely and be very ready to ridicule others. I notice you didn't offer an explanation.
We dont know what we dont know.
The ony disservice is a mail such as yours - it is hardly basic stuff that is being discussed and you should be ashamed for being so critical of someone seeking clarification and to learn/understand. To me it is apparent that Mainsail has knowledge that I do not - and I should like to understand the points being made as I was considering a change to this technology. If I am not aware that other postings on this matter exist how do I know to look for them? To clarify, that is a rhetorical question.
I could also start talking about my profession and use acronyms but that would not help my patients or their relatives, despite the existence of the internet.
However, as you say, I shouldn't take the writings of one individual as gospel so I shall ignore your meanderings.
My posting was also polite whereby I sought clarification without resorting to undue criticism.


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Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
Mainsail is one of the folks here who give their time and energy to help others, and you are talking to him like he did you a dis-service. Just because you do not yet know the lingo used around a technology, or some basic electrical system terms. He did write in English. I respectfully suggest that you spend some time reading the very large LIFEPO4 thread here, before asking for somebody to spoon feed it to you. You will be much better off then just taking what one person tells you as the gospel, and running with it.

Chris
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Old 06-12-2015, 14:09   #19
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Each technology has it's own jargon/argot. If we want to understand the technology we have to either become familiar with the new language, or wait until it becomes more mainstream.
People used to think the devil was inside of the copper electric wires in houses a century ago. Now we are as used to having electricity as plentiful as water in our boats and homes.
Lithium battery systems have reached the point where many boats can use them to advantage. But like any change, the effect on the entire system, and the way we use the system needs to be adjusted. Location, cable sizing, charging, components and use need to be carefully evaluated.
Battery management systems for lithium batteries are different than those used in lead acid. They are also evolving rapidly. Companies like ReVision marine are using technology several generations beyond what is found in the 787. That still puts it where I would say the line between bleeding and leading edge sits for me.
By the time the batteries on our own boat need to be replaced, lithium cells may be a simple choice. I am working on a large power boat where the choice may go in favor of lithium. It's has been a lively discussion.
Since this topic is dear to us, let's try to stay on it. Those of us who are fluent with the new terms might want to add a glossary (or link to a glossary) in each relevant thread for people who are new to, but interested in this topic.
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Old 06-12-2015, 15:03   #20
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

I have an outboard motor that came with a lifepo starting battery under the engine cover. So far it's been wonderful. I guess all of my tool batteries are LiFePo as well. In small sizes they seem wonderful.
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Old 06-12-2015, 15:19   #21
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

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I guess all of my tool batteries are LiFePo as well.
Lithium ion yes, lithium iron phosphate probably not. Types of Lithium-ion Batteries – Battery University
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Old 06-12-2015, 15:23   #22
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IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Actually small batteries like Laptop, tools etc are usually Li-ion. Li-ion differs I believe from Li-po in that it is encased in a can. Li-po is in a bag.

I believe also almost if not all the bad press comes from Li-ion and Li-po batteries.

Your battery may be Life-po though, I replaced the battery in my dirt bike with a Life-po one, lost a lot of weight and so far it's been fine.

Batteries for my Milwaukee drill I use for the winches is a Li-ion though


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Old 06-12-2015, 15:35   #23
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

After changing from FLA's to LiFePo4 cells, if my new battery went bad, I'd buy them again. I'd not go back to FLA's even if given a lifetime free source.

And I'm not rich.
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Old 06-12-2015, 16:09   #24
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

While reading this thread I have noticed that many posters are refering the all lithium batteries as the same. "Lithium-ion" and "LiFePo4" are two different batteries, they are manufactured of a completely different chemical structure.
The only thing that they have in common is that the base element is Lithium.
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Old 06-12-2015, 16:12   #25
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Bulawayo,

My point was not what you asked but how I perceived you asked it. I took your asking twice for it to be put in English using capital letters (many perceive that to be yelling on the internet) as a disrespectful demand. You are telling me I was wrong, ok, then for that I apologize.

Here is Main Sails' page on lithium on his own website:

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

There is no such thing as drop in replacement LIFEPO4 batteries for boats. Even the offerings from Mastervolt and Victron, as wonderful as they are, are not drop in replacements. Much effort needs to be spent on managing and controlling every point of charging and load. If you look at a diagram on either of those companies websites, of a typical Lithium system, you will see what I mean. I am not trying to scare you off, just know that you will need to spend many days learning about this technology if you want to consider DIY. There is no source to tell you how to do it on your boat, because every boat is different.



Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
No Witzgall - not at all. Read my posting again. Is it really so hard to provide an explanation of the acronyms? Do we really have to start searching for something we dont even know exists? When someone is familar with a subject then the acronyms can flow without the realisation that others may not be as familiar. Of course, some others shall understand completely and be very ready to ridicule others. I notice you didn't offer an explanation.
We dont know what we dont know.
The ony disservice is a mail such as yours - it is hardly basic stuff that is being discussed and you should be ashamed for being so critical of someone seeking clarification and to learn/understand. To me it is apparent that Mainsail has knowledge that I do not - and I should like to understand the points being made as I was considering a change to this technology. If I am not aware that other postings on this matter exist how do I know to look for them? To clarify, that is a rhetorical question.
I could also start talking about my profession and use acronyms but that would not help my patients or their relatives, despite the existence of the internet.
However, as you say, I shouldn't take the writings of one individual as gospel so I shall ignore your meanderings.
My posting was also polite whereby I sought clarification without resorting to undue criticism.
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Old 06-12-2015, 17:07   #26
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
Bulawayo,

My point was not what you asked but how I perceived you asked it. I took your asking twice for it to be put in English using capital letters (many perceive that to be yelling on the internet) as a disrespectful demand. You are telling me I was wrong, ok, then for that I apologize.

Here is Main Sails' page on lithium on his own website:

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

There is no such thing as drop in replacement LIFEPO4 batteries for boats. Even the offerings from Mastervolt and Victron, as wonderful as they are, are not drop in replacements. Much effort needs to be spent on managing and controlling every point of charging and load. If you look at a diagram on either of those companies websites, of a typical Lithium system, you will see what I mean. I am not trying to scare you off, just know that you will need to spend many days learning about this technology if you want to consider DIY. There is no source to tell you how to do it on your boat, because every boat is different.



Chris

+1
There are two huge threads about LiFepo use on this forum. The recurring theme is that if you don't really understand what you are doing with the whole system it will very likely be an expensive lesson and possibly even a dangerous one. At the very least read everything that Maine Sail has written and if it doesn't make complete sense to you do more research before jumping in. In any event if you do take the plunge and put in a LiFePo battery bank please keep us informed on how it works for you. Preferably with pictures. We are all looking for more real world experiences with data points.
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Old 06-12-2015, 17:43   #27
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

I have no doubt that LiFePo batteries are the best bang for my buck (at least of what I know about batteries so far). What I do not like about them is 1. COST 2. UNKNOWNS ABOUT THEIR CHEMICAL GASSING DANGERS 3. THEIR INSTABILITY AT CERTAIN TEMPS AND CHARGE STATES 4. THEIR POSSIBILITY OF POLAR REVERSE WHICH MAKES THEM VERY UNSTABLE.
Canada is a leading source of lithium. Chile (I believe) is the leader. These types of batteries have been made with a lot of different formulas (LiPo, Li-ion, LiFe, LiFePO, etc etc). The makers are trying furiously to make a battery that will be safer and put out more amps. China is probably the biggest "lab" for making these batteries. I have been buying them from China for my airplanes for many years. For example, a 5200 mah 14v battery here in Canada costs about $240.00 I get them in China/Hong Kong for about $58.00 (no shipping cost and no duty).
I could probably get batteries for my boat from China for not too much more cost than my much heavier Lead acid batteries but I do not want to live on a boat with a chemically charging battery that I do not yet know enough about-call me paranoid. I have had NO problems with these Chinese batteries. I do respect them and always charge them and store them in lithium charge bags. If I put them on board, I would make a proper battery cage that was well ventilated and fire proof.
If this will help --> I know that the LiFe (lithium ferrous....) batteries are the most well respected of the lithiums for airplanes BUT man are they xpensive !

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Old 06-12-2015, 18:37   #28
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Lithium batteries can explode, mainly into salt water or overcharging
Ancillary systems are more expensive than traditional
Batteries per se cost me 4X-5X a mix of GEL/lead acid batteries, in 2014

Using Lithium batteries for storing capacity is insane.

Using them for rapid charge/discharge, and electric traction, is good (Tesla)
A 18Ah lithium battery is equivalent to a 80/100Ah traditional battery, in terms of delivering 900Ah starting impulse.
Overall, too expensive, dangerous, prone to create problems, but the future changes faster then we imagine.
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Old 06-12-2015, 18:49   #29
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

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Except there would not have been explosive hydrogen gas venting and in a lithium battery...

Chris
No hydrogen but you might want to Google Boeing aircraft and thermal runaway.
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Old 06-12-2015, 18:52   #30
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Re: IS Lithium IRON phosphate the future of marine batteries?

Thunderbird,

Please stop spreading bogus stuff before you know what you are talking about.

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