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Old 14-04-2018, 10:01   #106
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
But the reality is that most cruising boats only infrequently if ever move from one voltage to another...
Both voltage and frequency needs considering. For the details, there are maps like this:
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Old 14-04-2018, 10:53   #107
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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What power assist inverter do you use?
I've only seen that feature advertised on Combi units.

Is it available in stand-alone inverters?

I'm mostly asking just out of curiosity, since as I've already stated I don't see how that feature would be needed in my use cases.


> Have you put your charger setup to use on multiple voltage/freq? Has it worked well?

Yes.

Both Sterling ProCharge Ultra and ProMariner Pronautic P IMO give the best flexibility, particularly in charge profile output.

But wrt to inputs, really any vendor selling the same charger version unchanged globally will work just fine, we're just talking about a simple battery charger right?

Most electronics are easily switched between USA and international mains these days.
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Old 14-04-2018, 10:58   #108
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by missourisailor View Post
But I think John has the better solution...reduce your AC foot print.
I had no idea that was a "solution" to any particular problem, just a fundamental design goal from the get go.

But thanks.

I guess living for many decades without first-world infrastructure was good prep.

Which reminds me, my current crop of kids has had things way too easy for the last few years 8-)
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:02   #109
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
We're going separates for this very reason. With our planned setup, we would be able to plug into any marina with any voltage to charge our batteries with the victron phoenix charger. Then we can push our native (USA 120v 60hz) voltage to the boat AC and run everything from the batteries or for light loads from the charger as a power supply. The only thing is to be able to plug the charger from shore directly so the inverter supplies the AC circuit board instead of shore.
And if you want to use a particular 240 appliance acquired in your travels, NBD, just feed a locally purchased right-sized inverter from your DC distribution.
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:05   #110
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Most electronics are easily switched between USA and international mains these days.
Most electronics are truly DC devices. All that is needed is a rectifier to go from Ac to DC and then voltage reg..

Because of this, they don't really care about AC voltage or freq's..

Well kinda... but you get my drift.
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:12   #111
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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It would be impracticable to have an inverter that output multiple voltages since most of the devices powered by the inverter will not be universal input voltage.
I don't think anyone was talking about designing for that?

> the boat's AC system design

To me AC is not something "designed into the boat system". Yes chargers take it as input when the boat has shore power, but that is rare, and any flavour is fine.

And some (very few) load devices require it as input.

> most cruising boats only infrequently if ever move from one voltage to another.

What an odd thought. I guess combi units are appropriate for them then.

> A low cost universal voltage charger is a nice luxury but hardly mandatory

Low cost to me means $50-100, that's hardly what I'm talking about.
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:16   #112
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by missourisailor View Post
Most electronics are truly DC devices. All that is needed is a rectifier to go from Ac to DC and then voltage reg..

Because of this, they don't really care about AC voltage or freq's..

Well kinda... but you get my drift.
Yes, when shopping for consumer devices to use off-grid, first filter I apply is to look for those that run off a DC power brick, rather than building the rectifier circuitry internally.

Cuts down on inverters needed, and much more energy efficient, even if a little DC-DC conversion is required.
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:25   #113
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by missourisailor View Post
multi volt/freq input, constant volt/freq output converters.
I think the actual term is "power conditioners"
Yes, not something I would ever need.

> what ever you plug into AC wise at the dock, you will always have 120VAC/60 Cycles

Or for many cruisers, provide their boat's native 220V from the oddball US supply.

My strategy is **no** AC outlets for passengers to plug into, only "internal" wiring to service permanently installed devices.

I'd be happy to provide a small inverter for a passenger to plug into a DC outlet, if I were sufficiently motivated. What, like an electric razor or hairdryer I suppose?
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:33   #114
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

well, i am installing a victron quattro 12/5000-220 100/100 on purpose and i appreciate all the features this unit offers, especially the power assist function and the bms inputs / relais outputs, transfer logic etc....

For my use case the perfect match, but I am a power hog... I am going for all-electric galley, lithium, solar and no propane on board except for the bbq.

This are different philosophies, I an opting for an automatic approach with all bells & whistles. But I am experianced in all electric / electronics stuff, so I am not the average saylor, I am always able to sort it out and fix issues.
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Old 14-04-2018, 11:41   #115
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post

I'd be happy to provide a small inverter for a passenger to plug into a DC outlet, if I were sufficiently motivated. What, like an electric razor or hairdryer I suppose?
Just for some late night reading... MaineSail did a test on charging an IPad from both an inverter and a USB outlet.
USB was the most efficient.

https://marinehowto.com/ipad-charging-how-much-energy/

I don't know about running a hair dryer from a small portable inverter.
I think I'd just hand out towels.
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Old 14-04-2018, 12:01   #116
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
> the boat's AC system design

To me AC is not something "designed into the boat system". Yes chargers take it as input when the boat has shore power, but that is rare, and any flavour is fine.

And some (very few) load devices require it as input.
FWIW, I don't think your use case is the norm for boats like ours. Of course we have the usual mandatory DC systems (nav lights, freshwater pump, etc.) but boatloads of stuff on boats like ours are designed from the git-go to run on AC, often without an inverter: aircon/reverse cycle heaters (multiples), cooktop, oven, microwave/convection oven (although some can run from an inverter for short periods), water heater, entertainment systems (although inverter-friendly), AC-only self-defrost fridges... plus plug-in stuff like hair dryers and so forth. It's not uncommon to start genset first, then mains before leaving the dock... stop genset when returning to the dock.


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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
> most cruising boats only infrequently if ever move from one voltage to another.

What an odd thought. I guess combi units are appropriate for them then.
Just a guess, I'd bet (90%?? 95%?? 98%??) of U.S. boats never leave the U.S. Not actually trying to be accurate with the posited number, just guessing it's a big one... so also agreeing it's likely much more common to not need some other base voltage/frequency.

That's not counting feeding a 50-amp boat from twin 30s, or feeding a twin-30-amp boat from a 50, or similar conversions, though.

Don't think that necessarily argues for or against a combi versus separates, aside from understanding that separate chargers do seem to offer more input latitude... whether needed/useful or not...

-Chris
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Old 14-04-2018, 13:20   #117
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

I thought the generalisation was "cruisers" not all boats including at the lake docks or on roof racks.

By the latter standard very few boats have a genset, much less an electric galley.

In any case I am **definitely not** saying my design principles should be applied to all.

My point is just that there is no one solution type that is "best for all",

rather it depends on context and preferences,

and getting into the tech nitty gritty helps expose the information relevant to each of us making up our own minds.
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Old 14-04-2018, 14:24   #118
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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I thought the generalisation was "cruisers" not all boats including at the lake docks or on roof racks.

Yes, I mean cruisers. Just don't happen to be sailboats, but many we know like us run 300-400 miles per year, even if in a series of short trips. We've got just over 9000 NM on ours, so far. Some, like us, even anchor out from time to time, sometimes even for extended periods.

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Old 21-04-2018, 11:04   #119
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

So I got my new ProMariner TruePower Combi 2000w pure sine wave/ 70 amp charger installed today. This was to replace my Freedom 2000w modified sine wave/100 amp charger.

On the generator the new unit supplied the full 70 amps a a battery condition that the old unit would only supply 40 amps.

That will cut the generator runtime pretty much in half.
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Old 21-04-2018, 11:56   #120
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Re: Inverter/Charger Recommends

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So I got my new ProMariner TruePower Combi 2000w pure sine wave/ 70 amp charger installed today. This was to replace my Freedom 2000w modified sine wave/100 amp charger.

On the generator the new unit supplied the full 70 amps a a battery condition that the old unit would only supply 40 amps.

That will cut the generator runtime pretty much in half.
And the inverter puts out a full 120v. My microwave even now runs on inverter. In fact things run better off the inverter than the generator.
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