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Old 21-01-2016, 05:57   #211
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Re: Ideal Generator?

The 27 AH thing was just to try to get a rough order of magnitude of how much power is required, just as the 1 gl was a pure arbitrary measurement, I know we don't cook with a whole gallon of water, who does?
Plus obviously that gets it to boiling, it will spend some time at boil, how much energy is required for that? I think that would be very hard to determine, but it's outside of the scope of what I was trying to see.
Just trying to get a little handle on how much power are we talking about, I believe for the average boat, cooking would more than double average electrical consumption, but that too is sort of a little bogus as what is "average", and some cook very little and some cook a lot. I think we are going to be occasionally baking bread for example, and that takes awhile.
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Old 21-01-2016, 06:08   #212
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Re: Ideal Generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post

Question is when was the last time folks tested their solenoids to make sure they still seal shut 100%. I suspect it does not happen that often. Even I only check it every year or so.

What I do every time I change a tank which is only three times a year or so as we don't live aboard yet is.
Turn tank on then off with solenoid off and look for a leak, turn on stove burner, ensure no drop in pressure, turn stove off. Open solenoid with tank on, and turn tank off with solenoid still on but stove off of course and look for pressure drop. I believe this both functions checks and leak checks everything?
I need to change my hose too, as I have no idea of it's age, but bet its as old as the boat. Where do you get a custom flexible hose made, and what material should it be made from?
Is Hydraulic hose acceptable?
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:00   #213
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Is Hydraulic hose acceptable?
no you need specialty hose made for gas. Simplest thing is have one made. Ask where you buy or refill your gas bottles - they'll know who makes these. If thye don't the gas distributor will. Failing that - a marine chandlery should know

do not use hydraulic hose - it will leak
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:11   #214
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Actually boats burn up all the time, well many times a year, due to a propane failure. It does not happen a lot, but it does happen. It's more like 95% safe per year. As gas regulators age, they can lock up or it's diaphram rip. or a hose leaks at a fitting or valve leak at the range. I also suspect not all propane solenoids hold close spring is rated for 120 psig. Under normal conditions the solenoid only sees about 1/4 psig 11 inches water column anyway. A tad more then 1/4 psig. If the regulator locks up, you can easily have 120+ psig at the solenoid valve inlet.

Properly designed and installed, a propane is close to 100% safe when New. 10 or 20 years later, its less safe, year after year.

Which reminds me to replace the old propane hose (I have the new one already), one of these days.

Question is when was the last time folks tested their solenoids to make sure they still seal shut 100%. I suspect it does not happen that often. Even I only check it every year or so.

Yep. One of the things I'm a little paranoid about. I do a leak check and inspect hoses and fittings every time I change tanks. Change solenoid valve every 5 years.
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Old 21-01-2016, 09:26   #215
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Re: Ideal Generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
What I do every time I change a tank which is only three times a year or so as we don't live aboard yet is.
Turn tank on then off with solenoid off and look for a leak, turn on stove burner, ensure no drop in pressure, turn stove off. Open solenoid with tank on, and turn tank off with solenoid still on but stove off of course and look for pressure drop. I believe this both functions checks and leak checks everything?
I need to change my hose too, as I have no idea of it's age, but bet its as old as the boat. Where do you get a custom flexible hose made, and what material should it be made from?
Is Hydraulic hose acceptable?
Thus falls quite short of best practice, in my opinion, especially the old hoses.

I suggest a professional inspection, in your presence (so you learn what to keep your eye on).

What I do is this:

1. Change all rubber parts including hoses every 3 years, and new professional inspection and gas safety certificate.

2. Check for chafing of hose (particularly where stove gimbals) every quarter. Also wiring.

3. Check solenoid operation - after every use.

4. Bubble test- after every bottle change.

5. Check sealing of gas locker (very important!) once a year; also the drain.

This is similar to the Royal Navy procedure, but without the bilge pumping.

I don't change the solenoid prophylactically as they reliably fail every two years. One of them burned up! Damned lucky that didn't blow the boat up. Imagine a fire in your gas locker!!

Did I mention that I hate gas?

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Old 21-01-2016, 09:43   #216
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Re: Ideal Generator?

US regs require a pressure gauge in the line. By first pressurizing the line, and turning off the tank, any leak will result in a loss of pressure. You check solenoid valve sealing by having stove on, solenoid valve off, pressurize system and close tank, any leak in solenoid valve will of course cause a drop in pressure as the stove is on, then turn off burner, pressurize system and turn tank off, your leak checking everything to the stove, any leaks will cause a drop in pressure.
Pretty smart system, I believe, may be for all I know the World standard.

When I bought the boat, I discovered the PO had a secondary bilge pump installed with a high water alarm, pretty smart I thought.
But I guess the installer didn't want to drill another hole in the boat so they installed a "T" in the propane locker drain.
This of course connected my propane locker directly to the lowest point in the bilge.
Pretty smart Huh? And he paid a "Professional" to do it, I have the receipt.

I thought hydraulic hose as it's Hell for strong, very high pressure, and if you get Teflon hose I believe it's gas proof. The rubber hose I often see used on propane doesn't impress me, but I guess the theory is it's low pressure.

Picture below is the propane system installed in an aircraft hangar in Argentina, I was so impressed I had to take a picture, the yellow pipe appeared to be PVC
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Old 21-01-2016, 10:04   #217
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Re: Ideal Generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
US regs require a pressure gauge in the line. By first pressurizing the line, and turning off the tank, any leak will result in a loss of pressure. You check solenoid valve sealing by having stove on, solenoid valve off, pressurize system and close tank, any leak in solenoid valve will of course cause a drop in pressure as the stove is on, then turn off burner, pressurize system and turn tank off, your leak checking everything to the stove, any leaks will cause a drop in pressure.
Pretty smart system, I believe, may be for all I know the World standard.
Sounds like a good way to check for current leaks, and I do something roughly similar (solenoid check by switching it off with a burner still going; leak check by pressurizing with stove off, switching solenoid off again, wait one hour, then check pressure), but this won't find very small leaks, and won't find leaks before they happen, so you need to do more. Watch especially chafe where stove gimbals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
When I bought the boat, I discovered the PO had a secondary bilge pump installed with a high water alarm, pretty smart I thought.
But I guess the installer didn't want to drill another hole in the boat so they installed a "T" in the propane locker drain.
This of course connected my propane locker directly to the lowest point in the bilge.
Pretty smart Huh? And he paid a "Professional" to do it, I have the receipt.
Words fail me. That is unspeakable. I wonder how many boats out there have some huge, idiotic flaw in the gas system, like that?

Yikes!

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Old 21-01-2016, 10:14   #218
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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Words fail me. That is unspeakable. I wonder how many boats out there have some huge, idiotic flaw in the gas system, like that?

Yikes!

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I know this is thread drift, but I think more than you may think, I remember seeing fuel line hose run all the way from the stove to the regulator on one boat.
I have a neighbor that has a 20 lb gas grill cylinder hanging off the back of his Pushpit that is his supply, I've seen that quite a few times
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Old 21-01-2016, 14:01   #219
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Re: Ideal Generator?

I'm not sure BoatUS is the best sampling to use as they insure not only cruising boats, but most likely a higher percentage of recreational boats.

Regardless, BoatUS statistics show a lot more boat fires due to electrical than propane.

Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS

A quote from this article:

Quote:
Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.
Boat Fires - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

A graph from this article:
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Old 21-01-2016, 15:27   #220
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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With 26.75A it takes 1 hour to boil.

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If you are only using 350W it will take an hour regardless of what the heating source is.

If you are using a 2000W induction plate at 80% efficiency, it will only take 13 minutes.
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Old 21-01-2016, 15:31   #221
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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Ouch.

(though I'm sure Stu will admit his error unlike some)
No error there. He's right. At 26.75A, it will take an hour to use 26.75Ah.
But who tries to boil a gallon of water using a 300W heating source?
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Old 21-01-2016, 15:55   #222
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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I'm not sure BoatUS is the best sampling to use as they insure not only cruising boats, but most likely a higher percentage of recreational boats.

Regardless, BoatUS statistics show a lot more boat fires due to electrical than propane.

Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS

A quote from this article:



Boat Fires - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

A graph from this article:
I love it. All the paranoia about propane but over half of all fires are electrical related.
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Old 21-01-2016, 16:11   #223
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Re: Ideal Generator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I'm not sure BoatUS is the best sampling to use as they insure not only cruising boats, but most likely a higher percentage of recreational boats.

Regardless, BoatUS statistics show a lot more boat fires due to electrical than propane.

Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS

A quote from this article:



Boat Fires - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS

A graph from this article:
Fires are not the main risk from propane. Rather, explosions. A rather different kind of problem.

Three boats blown to smithereens in the UK last year from gas.

If you choose not to worry about it, that's fine - your choice. There are plenty of other risks to worry about, so everyone has to allocate his attention to whatever seems most worthwhile.

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Old 21-01-2016, 16:15   #224
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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I love it. All the paranoia about propane but over half of all fires are electrical related.

The paranoia over propane is sort of like the paranoia of gasoline in a sport fisher. An electrical fire is a very bad thing, fires are my number one concern on a boat, but if your on board you probably have a better than even odds of putting it out, or at least not being hurt. A gasoline or propane explosion on the other hand, one second your laughing, drinking a beer and then instantly your in the water hopefully with third degree burns, or maybe still on the boat being burned alive.
Like a Commercial airliner crash, very unlikely event, but usually very bad consequences, so many people are afraid to fly.


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Old 21-01-2016, 16:40   #225
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Re: Ideal Generator?

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Fires are not the main risk from propane. Rather, explosions. A rather different kind of problem.

Three boats blown to smithereens in the UK last year from gas.

If you choose not to worry about it, that's fine - your choice. There are plenty of other risks to worry about, so everyone has to allocate his attention to whatever seems most worthwhile.

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I believe from an insurance point of view, fire and explosion are in the same category. I doubt that BoatUS left explosions out of the report(s) I referenced.

The point I'm attempting to make is contrary to your position that propane is more dangerous than electric, insurance statistics have shown that electrical fires are exponentially more common than propane fire/explosion. That's all! It's your choice to believe their numbers or not.

How many boat fires in the UK were due to electrically issues? I'm beginning to think boat explosions due to propane are similar to catamarans turtling, i.e., a huge news event, front of mind, so there must be a lot of them.

To your larger point, if you dislike propane and like electric for cooking, you should make the change. I'm simply claiming the change cannot be justified based on electric offering more safety, the statistics don't support it.

IMO, of course!
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