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Old 04-03-2018, 23:59   #31
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Re: Ice as a battery

Thanks for that, I assume setting the voltage switch at 13.7 volts means the freezer is only running when there is a supplementary charging source.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:06   #32
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
HW, there is Fluoride in our water, some is as high as 0.435mg/l.

However, I would have to travel many thousands of miles before I found a country were the average water quality wasn't suitable for drinking. How about you? Which are the nearest countries with undrinkable water to you.

Pete

Oh and the fluoride, well it's natural.
I just left the Dominican Republic. Their Ministry of Tourism tells you to not drink the water.
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:03   #33
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Re: Ice as a battery

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I guess if the freezer had a voltage threshold switch around 12.7 or 12.8 volts, it would only switch on when the battery bank was full and solar or wind chargers were working.
No matter what setpoint, voltage does not show bank state of charge.

Ensuring the bank gets to true 100% Full is the priority, and that can easily takes 4+ hours after V has reached Absorb setpoint (far higher than that).

It is only when trailing amps tapering down shows you've passed 90-95%

and taking into account how many solar input hours you have left in the day

that you can safely start diverting "free excess" power to the low-priority "load shedding" consumers.

Long motoring and genny runs with low loading are more productive sources of "free excess" power, but without some very skilled electric/computer engineering, a knowledgeable human will need to act as controller.
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:07   #34
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Re: Ice as a battery

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I would have to travel many thousands of miles before I found a country were the average water quality wasn't suitable for drinking.
75% of my adult life has been spent in such places, even in cities with many millions.

Globally speaking, drinking water on tap is exceptional not the norm.

Most people on the planet need to fetch and carry water (of any kind) for the household.
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:16   #35
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Originally Posted by olaf hart View Post
Thanks for that, I assume setting the voltage switch at 13.7 volts means the freezer is only running when there is a supplementary charging source.
More like "delays running without a charge source".

Maintaining temps is still top priority.

Ideally an external "batteries now close enough to Full" signal could be the trigger,

as for example a sophisticated SoC monitor's relay, like 702-BMV or SmartGauge+SmartBank.

Presence of charging voltage alone is a pretty rough indicator.

But certainly better than nothing, very helpful optimization for a eutectic system.
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:27   #36
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Re: Ice as a battery

What I was thinking of was something more like an icebox--a refrigerator that uses ice, kept in a separate compartment, to keep it cool--only with a built-in ice maker. Whenever there was power, unless the ice compartment was already full, the ice maker would dump in more ice. As the ice melts, the water would get recirculated and held in a tank before being sent back to the ice maker. The ice compartment would have to be designed in such a way that it wouldn't get jammed and the melt water could always escape, which might be more difficult than I imagine.

I realize this would also be an inefficient setup. (I don't know enough about refrigeration to tell you how inefficient.) Consider the benefits, though. You wouldn't need any battery at all! Also, if there was no sunlight, or the system was left shutdown while you were away (I always turn everything off and bring my one solar panel inside when I leave my system, but I have a propane refrigerator), all you would have to do is show up with three or four, or maybe five or six, bags of ice to immediately "jump start" things so all the food you brought with you doesn't go bad waiting for the solar to charge the batteries!

Edit to add one more advantage: On those days when you're not using the refrigerator, you wouldn't have the weight of the ice or the big battery you would have needed.
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Old 05-03-2018, 07:09   #37
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Re: Ice as a battery

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75% of my adult life has been spent in such places, even in cities with many millions.

Globally speaking, drinking water on tap is exceptional not the norm.

Most people on the planet need to fetch and carry water (of any kind) for the household.
True, but the vast majority of CF members are in the 5% of top wealth earners in the world and mostly live in the US. So is tap water generally safe to drink in the USA?

Owly stated that he believes a WM is an essential piece of equipment on board, which he is perfectly entitled to do. Personally I disagree.

I don't remember the Hisocks using a WM in the film Beyond the West Horizon, and they did visit some exotic places. Sadly now pay per view and removed from YT by Sailing channel, which is just bad form.

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Old 05-03-2018, 07:17   #38
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Long motoring and genny runs with low loading are more productive sources of "free excess" power, but without some very skilled electric/computer engineering, a knowledgeable human will need to act as controller.
Quite and can't help but think of the "keep it simple" suggestion when reading this thread, when it all goes pear shaped in the back end of beyond.



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Old 05-03-2018, 07:31   #39
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Re: Ice as a battery

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So is tap water generally safe to drink in the USA?
Wealthy and large communities are mostly fine. Poorer and small ones not so much.

Monitoring and reporting is woefully inadequate for over 25% of the population in violation of federal law.

Nearly 6,000 water systems are in violation for lead, including 30+ large cities. Contamination by polyfluoroalkyl and perfluoroalkyl substances is increasingly common.

And note regs for bottled water are less stringent than for tap water.

Quote:
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Owly stated that he believes a WM is an essential piece of equipment on board, which he is perfectly entitled to do.
Many goods once rare luxuries have increasingly been seen as "necessities".

Clean drinking water obviously is, but how/where you get it is obviously a matter of opinion and preference.

Being in control of that as I travel around the world would IMO have great value.
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Old 05-03-2018, 07:42   #40
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Re: Ice as a battery

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What I was thinking of was something more like an icebox--a refrigerator that uses ice, kept in a separate compartment, to keep it cool--only with a built-in ice maker. Whenever there was power, unless the ice compartment was already full, the ice maker would dump in more ice. As the ice melts, the water would get recirculated and held in a tank before being sent back to the ice maker. The ice compartment would have to be designed in such a way that it wouldn't get jammed and the melt water could always escape, which might be more difficult than I imagine.
Commercial and consumer units designed like this are readily available, Uline is a well-respected vendor for reliability, but their products aren't cheap.

Most people need battery storage for needs other than refrigeration.

A eutectic system properly designed is very very efficient, and does reduce battery bank capacity required.

A jury rigged system would be worth playing with as a science project if you can't afford a proper fridge, but as you say not anywhere near as efficient, and IMO not likely dependable for long term liveaboard cruising.
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Old 05-03-2018, 16:50   #41
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Up here in Alaska I've been working on a solar beer warmer. I leave the beer out at night and it turns to ice. Using the latent heat of evaporation theory I use a magnifying glass and low solar angle to try to warm to aforementioned beer to coax it back to its liquid form. So far no luck, but by spring I hope to have a break-thru.
Ex-girlfriend had a similar problem to your beer. Some things worked, but no system was reliable, not even a low solar angle magnified through (wine) glasses. Difficult to coax to warmth.
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Old 05-03-2018, 17:02   #42
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Thanks for that, I assume setting the voltage switch at 13.7 volts means the freezer is only running when there is a supplementary charging source.
Not really Olaf,
Our systems are temperature controlled via water proof digital controllers which have a cut out point and cut in point. If the controller is in off mode and excess power is available, it is 'tricked' momentarily into on mode so the unit will then run and refreeze the eutectic plates albeit within the controllers parameters.
Cheers OzePete Ozefridge | 12 Volt Refrigeration Systems
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Old 05-03-2018, 18:23   #43
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Ex-girlfriend had a similar problem to your beer. Some things worked, but no system was reliable, not even a low solar angle magnified through (wine) glasses. Difficult to coax to warmth.
My first wife could cool a six-pac by holding it on her lap!
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Old 05-03-2018, 20:08   #44
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Re: Ice as a battery

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Originally Posted by Scotty Kiwi View Post
Ex-girlfriend had a similar problem to your beer. Some things worked, but no system was reliable, not even a low solar angle magnified through (wine) glasses. Difficult to coax to warmth.
As an American I find warmed beer hard to swallow, at least on this side of the Atlantic. Not quite as difficult as frozen beer, but nearly so.
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Old 06-03-2018, 06:59   #45
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Re: Ice as a battery

It's frankly amazing how complicated people can make things in pursuit of automation. just separate solar panels into banks with switches. Designate some to feed the charge controller, and some to the chiller. Have switching available so you can change that balance if needed. Solar is cheap these days. If you don't manage it like a computer would, it isn't the end of the world. Being able to monitor the state of charge so you can redirect intelligently is important.

There is a reason people use refrigeration systems that operate like shore refrigeration systems. Battery weight on monohulls is not particularly important, and it's easy and effortless................ My interest is in multihulls where every pound matters. I'm willing to manage my charging to keep weight down.

H.W.
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