I think I toasted my alternator - now what?

[Cheechako]

Just because the Hitachi had a double foot... would you need to use a double foot? or would the Delco single foot be fine if you aligned it properly....? ie: how can it be enough support on one application and not another...?

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Rusty123

Which essentially circles back to my post #22 above -- there seems to be a gap in the marketplace for moderate cost (<$300), moderate output (~55 amps), continuous duty alternators that will fit a Yanmar engine. (Prime use would be sailboats with small Yanmar auxiliary engines (~15 HP) that are relied upon to charge house battery banks).

Hitachi and Hitachi clones will fit, have moderate output, and are moderate cost, but they're not continuous duty.

Many non-Hitachi OEM alternators (such as the Delco and Prestolite) are moderate cost, moderate output, and continuous duty, but (as far as I know) they don't fit.

Custom alternators (such as MS describes) will fit, and are continuous duty, but they're not moderate output (all are too large, as far as I know), and are not moderate cost.

Custom alternators with sophisticated regulation (i.e., Balmar) will fit, are continuous duty, and can be set up for moderate output, but are most certainly not moderate cost.

Russ

10DN alternators can be had with different parts that provide different ratings. I think that 65 amp is actually one of the more common ones. Powermaster 10DN Style Alternators - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

I suspect that Main Sail can probably provide you with a low power version alternator in his custom cases, if that is what you want. If he can't do that, then it should be easy for a local alternator repair shop to turn it down a notch for you after you buy the high power version.

I don't know what Main Sail charges for those things, but his custom case Delco is what I would want to use for a replacement on that motor if it was in my boat. Once you have that thing installed, future rebuilds are cheap, easy & easy to find.

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Just because the Hitachi had a double foot... would you need to use a double foot? or would the Delco single foot be fine if you aligned it properly....? ie: how can it be enough support on one application and not another...?

I don't know if this is the case here or not, but one possibility would be that the second mounting point may be more rigid on an engine that uses a 2 point alternator mount rather than a 3 point.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

I don't know if this is the case here or not, but one possibility would be that the second mounting point may be more rigid on an engine that uses a 2 point alternator mount rather than a 3 point.

Bingo! The front foot of a Hitachi mount is about 1/2" thick the standard Delco is 1" or 2"... The 10DN front cases I use are custom cast and the back bracket is custom machined as this costs less than custom casting and entire rear case too. You really need the saddle mount or you risk breaking the alt case when loaded up. Proper alignment would be very difficult with a 1" foot on a Yanmar and machining it down to align it would likely result in a failure....

[Cheechako]

Does the Yanmar mount use a U shape steel bracket on the engine side? Why not just amend the offset of the bracket to accomodate the delco? I dont have a picture so not sure... just a thought...

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

There is a product called Zap stop which protects the Alternators diodes.

If one runs the alternator output to the house bank, a Zap Stop is not necessary. There's always a "load" on the alternator and the switch can't turn it off.


I'm sure you already knew that, didn't know if the OP did.

[Rusty123]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

10DN alternators can be had with different parts that provide different ratings. I think that 65 amp is actually one of the more common ones. Powermaster 10DN Style Alternators - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS I suspect that Main Sail can probably provide you with a low power version alternator in his custom cases, if that is what you want. If he can't do that, then it should be easy for a local alternator repair shop to turn it down a notch for you after you buy the high power version. I don't know what Main Sail charges for those things, but his custom case Delco is what I would want to use for a replacement on that motor if it was in my boat. Once you have that thing installed, future rebuilds are cheap, easy & easy to find.

This is actually the direction I'm going right now, for exactly the reasons you mention.

But in my discussions with MS, as well as Mark Grasser (who bases his custom alternators on the Delco CS130D), the recommended tactic to control output is with a sophisticated external regulator (such as with the Balmar belt management program). The option of "turning down" the alternator itself hasn't come up. How would that be done? (Another way of asking this question might be "what determines the maximum capacity of an amplifier?"

But output limiting would only matter if the alternator is internally regulated (since an external regulator can perform that function anyway), and I don't think Maine Sail's alternators come that way (external regulation required).

Russ

[Rusty123]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

If one runs the alternator output to the house bank, a Zap Stop is not necessary. There's always a "load" on the alternator and the switch can't turn it off. I'm sure you already knew that, didn't know if the OP did.

Ironically, my alternator had a zap-stop installed (not really needed, since it's wired directly to the house bank). Alas, the zap-stop doesn't protect against bonehead moves like reversing polarity.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Rusty123

This is actually the direction I'm going right now, for exactly the reasons you mention.

But in my discussions with MS, as well as Mark Grasser (who bases his custom alternators on the Delco CS130D), the recommended tactic to control output is with a sophisticated external regulator (such as with the Balmar belt management program). The option of "turning down" the alternator itself hasn't come up. How would that be done? (Another way of asking this question might be "what determines the maximum capacity of an amplifier?"

Russ

Russ,

If you go with an internal regulator then your limited to about 80A on the belt. If you go external regulation you can buy a larger alt then de-tune it in "belt manager" to 80A and it will run cooler and work less hard. You will also get 80A out of it all day long not 65-70A you'd get when hot on an 80A alt. If you ever decide on a serpentine pulley upgrade you would already be ready for it.

As you and I discussed I have no option for an internal reg and really don't build anything under 125A. I do install a lot of alts on single belts then de-tune to match what the belt can handle and they purr along for years barely breaking a sweat. I still think if Mark can build you an 80A 130D with internal reg, but set up for future external, that will be your best option. It is also a lot less expensive than a Balmar (much less than my cost as a dealer)

With your bank, a single stage internal reg will be a good fit. If your bank gets bigger then you could always add an external reg at a later date. I think one of Marks 80A alternators would be the best fit for you at this point.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Rusty123

But output limiting would only matter if the alternator is internally regulated (since an external regulator can perform that function anyway),
Russ

It is very difficult to current limit an internal regualtor. Not all external regulators have or offer current limiting as a feature. The Balmar's regs are one of the only externals to offer current limiting (they call it belt manager). As far as I know Mark's reg can't current limit unless he specifically custom programmed it for that. That said I think a simple internal reg 80A Mark Grasser alt will suit you well.

[Rusty123]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

It is very difficult to current limit an internal regualtor. Not all external regulators have or offer current limiting as a feature. The Balmar's regs are one of the only externals to offer current limiting (they call it belt manager). As far as I know Mark's reg can't current limit unless he specifically custom programmed it for that. That said I think a simple internal reg 80A Mark Grasser alt will suit you well.

You are correct - Mark's present external regulator (which is similar to the Sterling ProReg-D) does not offer output limitation, although he mentioned to me that he is working on one that will - time will tell.

I rehashed a little of what we discussed offline for the benefit of the thread (and those who will read it later), but I agree with you that an alternator like Mark's 80 amp model, or Balmar's 70 amp model (both internally regulated) is probably the best price-weighted option, with a larger "belt managed" alternator the best absolute option ( with the stock Hitachi coming in a distant third, but least expensive solution).

[Rusty123]

For anyone interested, Mark Grasser's products and contact information can be viewed at http://www.markgrasser.com/. He sells a few items via eBay under "atlanticmarineelectric".

Mark has experience and capabilities on both the technical and manufacturing side, and has some interesting products. He sells Lithium batteries too. No affiliation, other than a few helpful discussions, and the endorsement of Maine Sail (they are fairly near each other).

Russ

[Cheechako]

Seems the correct resistor in the field voltage wire would adjust any max output you wanted...? or a rheostat if you have amperage readout... ?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Seems the correct resistor in the field voltage wire would adjust any max output you wanted...? or a rheostat if you have amperage readout... ?

Gee, it's like back to the Future: an AutoMac!

In addition to the Belt Manager feature, I use this

Small Engine Mode - discussion with link to the picture of the toggle switch: Alternator heat, Regulator Controls, Small Engine Mode

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Rusty123

The option of "turning down" the alternator itself hasn't come up. How would that be done? (Another way of asking this question might be "what determines the maximum capacity of an amplifier?"

I'm a little outside of my range of experience with this response, so please take what I say here with a grain of salt.

I expect that changing the regulator should be all that is needed to reduce the output of an alternator. I expect that to be the case, but I do not know that to be the case. A guy at an alternator shop can probably give you a better answer.

I also believe that there were different windings that were put in 10DN alternators for different applications. I have read about this being the case, but I have never taken apart a bunch of them & compared windings to see if I could find any actual differences. I expect that the heavier windings can be used for lite duty applications. I do not expect that the lite duty windings would work well for heavy amp applications.

I would also expect that a guy at an alternator shop probably takes in a certain number of stock alternators that work from customers that want them beefed up for higher output. This would likely leave him with a junk box of low amp parts that he may be willing to part with for very reasonable prices.

Again, I am not fully confident of the accuracy of this information. Please check with other sources before relying on what I said here.