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Old 15-10-2012, 22:11   #31
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Re: I need Generator Help

Thanks for your expert advise, I have no idea were I would go to get such advise.

The 2 red wires are not conected together, they are capped off separatly.

The 2 white wires on the Right are conected to a capacitor as you mentioned, I took a pic, below.

I don't have an ohm meter hear, it is on the boat, I will get it tomarrow and let you know what I find.
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Old 15-10-2012, 22:14   #32
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Re: I need Generator Help

I forgot to mention, the 2 white wires conected to the capaciter, one of the wires is conected to the rt side of the capaciter and the other is conected to the other side.
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Old 16-10-2012, 17:21   #33
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Re: I need Generator Help

I got my Ohm meter and did the tests that were mentioned.

The test between Blue and Brown showed 0000 which I take as no resistance

The test between red and red showed 0000 same as above.

The test bewteen blue and ether red showed an open curcit or no reading.

the test between brown and ether red showed an open curcit or no reading.

The test between the white wires on the Rt showed 0000 or no resistance.

Given what you have said, I would assume that the 2 red wires are a 2nd curcit not used. Am I correct? I haven't started the Generator up to test to find the actual output is yet. Would you assume that the 2 red wires would produce 230 V also?
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Old 16-10-2012, 17:32   #34
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Re: I need Generator Help

Another question.

Assuming that this generator can not be used to produce 110Volt, 60 hz power, would it be possible to have the windings redone to aceive this? Or would it be cost prohibitive?
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Old 16-10-2012, 17:57   #35
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Re: I need Generator Help

Rocketman, Theres a fella on here looking for a 50 hz gen set ~! Maybe yall can work something out ?? just sayin he's up in for sale I believe
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Old 16-10-2012, 18:26   #36
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Re: I need Generator Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Rocketman, Theres a fella on here looking for a 50 hz gen set ~! Maybe yall can work something out ?? just sayin he's up in for sale I believe
Thanks for the lead, but we have already communitcated, he checked on the cost of shipping to the UK (about 600) then the cost to install and decided that he didn't want it that bad. I was going to sell it to him for very cheap but due to othre cost involved he decided not to go forward.

With that said, I have seen several 230V 50hz gensets for sale and they are dirt cheap. I am doing this project for the knowlage and experience as much as anything. Also I hate to see a perfectly good generator go unused.
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Old 16-10-2012, 21:54   #37
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Re: I need Generator Help

Rocketman,

Everything you describe makes sense to me except the red wires. No idea on those.

It appears that the generator is a capacitor excited induction generator. The capacitor is connected to one winding (usually the rotor) and provides excitation to create the magnetic field and also provides the voltage regulation. It's a simple, elegant design. Has some drawbacks, not really good for starting motors or other high-inrush loads, but otherwise no problems. This is from Marathon's similar device:

Quote:
capacitor generators are designed to minimize the length of the generator package. They utilize a capacitor excitation system which succeeds in eliminating the extra generator length associated with a brushless exciter. Since the capacitor winding is excited from the negative sequence voltage, there must be some harmonics present to provide this form of generator excitation. Because of the intrinsic harmonic content of the voltage waveform, this product is not recommended for uses where waveform distortion is of concern. The motor starting capability of this capacitor generator is also significantly less than a comparable transformer or electronically regulated generator. Primary use of this product is to power incandescent lighting, while providing a small amount of auxiliary power
Here's the manual for their unit that I think is similar (just for the background information):

http://www.marathonelectric.com/gene...als/GPN012.pdf

You'd need a better meter to look at winding resistances, the stator (I suspect blue/brown) should be about 0.5 to 1.0 Ohms, the rotor less than 2 Ohms. Either way, can't imagine what the red wires do (second winding?, 12V charging circuit?) since they clearly don't have a connection to the blue/brown winding, would love to know what your tests show. I would reassemble and lead the wires somewhere you can get access to them, then measure voltages to all the various points when running.

As for rebuilding, frequency is mostly a function of rotation speed, 50Hz generators spin at 3000RPM (or 1500), 60Hz generally spin at 3600/1800. So, if the motor/bearings can handle the extra speed you can usually change from 50 to 60Hz. With a capacitor excited unit voltage goes up as speed goes up and the capacitor has to be at resonance at the desired frequency, so there would also be some changes required in the capacitor/regulation system (not sure exactly what).

If you can find the approximate center it is possible to center tap an existing winding, but probably more trouble than it is worth. Maybe someone who has tried it can chime in. Don't know what the costs would be to have someone build you a winding. Could always put a transformer on the output, so would have to compare that cost with a new winding.

Bottom line, I'm stumped by the red wires, would have to run it and test.

BTW, if it is capacitor excited you may have to "flash" the generator on re-assembly. With no magnets either the rotor has to have slight residual magnetisation or the capacitor has to have a slight charge to get things started. There are various methods (you can Google for more), but the simplest (to me) is to hook a 12V battery across the capacitor for about a second. That's all it takes. It's quite a common procedure if this is really a capacitor excited system.

Good luck and let us know what you figure out, because I want to know about those red wires.
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Old 16-10-2012, 22:17   #38
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Re: I need Generator Help

Dsanduril
Thanks again for the advise, right now I have the generator out of the encloser box, and I have done the mantainace to the engine and box, so I am ready to put it all back together, unfortanitly I won't have time to mess with it for a week or so, but when I do, I will see what going on with the red wires and let you know.

I do have all of the information on the generator and was wondering if you knew where to go to get tech information from?
This is what is on the plate on the side of the generator. The unit is in a Vetus box.
Faryman Diesel GMBH Germany
Model 18W430
Typ 0141
Trim M5
S/N 301081019 030710
P 4.68kW
n 3050 min
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Old 16-10-2012, 22:35   #39
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Re: I need Generator Help

Rocketman,

Farymann is the diesel engine manufacturer, don't think that tells us much about the generator portion. But, Vetus is a really good company and has a pretty good website. I suspect you have a Vetus GHS4 generator head on a Farymann diesel engine. For the generator check out:

GHS4 Manual - multi-language

Schematics

Parts Manual

Vetus Manuals Site

Farymann is not quite as easy, but the 18W is a quite common engine (used on a lot of generators). Here's the datasheet:

Farymann 18W Datasheet

And here's the manual out of Germany:

Farymann 15W/18W Manual

Maybe someone else here can point to the service manuals.
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Old 16-10-2012, 23:10   #40
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Re: I need Generator Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Rocketman,

Farymann is the diesel engine manufacturer, don't think that tells us much about the generator portion. But, Vetus is a really good company and has a pretty good website. I suspect you have a Vetus GHS4 generator head on a Farymann diesel engine. For the generator check out:

GHS4 Manual - multi-language

Schematics

Parts Manual

Vetus Manuals Site

Farymann is not quite as easy, but the 18W is a quite common engine (used on a lot of generators). Here's the datasheet:

Farymann 18W Datasheet

And here's the manual out of Germany:

Farymann 15W/18W Manual

Maybe someone else here can point to the service manuals.
@Dsanduril Great info and very clearly stated. You know your stuff.

I believe I found a service manual for the engine.

It appears to state that it can be regulated to run at 3000 RPM or 3600 RPM (giving the 50 or 60hz respectively) (page 63 of the service manual I believe).

Now to figure out what generator is bolted on to the engine....

Excellent thread....
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Old 17-10-2012, 06:31   #41
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Re: I need Generator Help

I think the 31.5uF capacitor is for a 50hz system. I would expect 4 wires out from the generator stators and the usual standard colors for them are red, white, brown and blue. These can be connected in parallel or series to give nominal 110V or 220V, respectively.

Your two red wires are confusing. Is it possible one is a faded brown/orange color instead? In a typical 230V 50Hz configuration, the white and brown wires would be connected together and the hot and neutral legs taken off the red and blue wires.

Winding resistance readings are very low and it is likely that you are not actually measuring continuity when you see "0".

It is a mystery...

Mark
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Old 17-10-2012, 06:59   #42
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Re: I need Generator Help

There are not a lot of AC appliances on a yacht and many of these are dual voltage. The best option may be to keep the generator 230v and change the appliances.
A small 230v distribution system is not expensive to set up
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:13   #43
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Re: I need Generator Help

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There are not a lot of AC appliances on a yacht and many of these are dual voltage. The best option may be to keep the generator 230v and change the appliances.
A small 230v distribution system is not expensive to set up
I would be inclined to go this route, except I don't want to change out say, the AC system also. It is also going to cost a fair amount of time and money to install this genset. Hoses, wire, though hulls, muffler, haul out, and routing all the nessasary stuff to make this work is not a small task.

Then I would have to replace the AC system, and such, then when I pulled in to a dock, I couldn't plug in and run off shore power. So if I were to install this genset as a 230v 50hz unit I would probably simply use it to charge my battery's then convert that back to 110v through a inverter.
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:18   #44
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Re: I need Generator Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I think the 31.5uF capacitor is for a 50hz system. I would expect 4 wires out from the generator stators and the usual standard colors for them are red, white, brown and blue. These can be connected in parallel or series to give nominal 110V or 220V, respectively.

Your two red wires are confusing. Is it possible one is a faded brown/orange color instead? In a typical 230V 50Hz configuration, the white and brown wires would be connected together and the hot and neutral legs taken off the red and blue wires.

Winding resistance readings are very low and it is likely that you are not actually measuring continuity when you see "0".

It is a mystery...

Mark
Thanks for the advise, it is possible that I am missusing the mulitmeter that I have. It is one that does everything but half the battle is knowing how to use it. I will try to get back with everyone with better infomation.
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Old 17-10-2012, 13:23   #45
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Re: I need Generator Help

Ok, I decided to put off my responcablitys today so I could get some questions answered.

I put the unit back together and to my amazement it started right up and ran great again, Hooking up the volt meter the gererator was putting out 210Volts with no load, I suspect the RPM's may be a litttle low hence the 210Volts instead of 230.

I spiced additional wire to the 2 red wires that are unknown as to there purpose. When I hooked the volt meter up, it showed 13.84 volts. I guess I would have to assume that this was designed to charge a 12Volt battery.

I found another ohm meter and rechecked the resistance between Blue to Brown and found that I could not get a steady reading. The meter changed between 0.5 to 1.5 and back again.

When I checked the ohm meter on the 2 red wired I found it again to show a steady 0000.

With all this said, I am assuming that there is no way to easily center tap this unit to produce the 110V power that I would like to have. Am I wrong in this assumption?
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