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Old 17-06-2012, 08:46   #1
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Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

I have been struggling with finding the right electrical life on board since I moved my boat to a mid-river mooring in the Hamble without shore power.

I installed a wind generator which is entirely useless. Probably defective and still struggling with it, but would not solve all my problems even if it will eventually work as advertised.

I have a heavy-duty slow-speed nearly silent Kohler 6.5kW genset, but this really can't be efficiently used to top off the batts. I always shut it off when I finish bulk charging phase -- it doesn't make sense to keep it running longer if there are no other AC loads (and I rarely need the genset for AC loads since my inverter runs everything so well). Besides that, the Kohler is broken at the moment, and parts are not stocked in the US . I am trying to get it working before my summer cruise (starts in 2 weeks!), but I am now facing the fact that I might spend half the summer cruising without the Kohler.

So I have kind of decided to buy a suitcase generator. The prices are ridiculous in the UK for some reason -- more than double the prices in the U.S. But I think that one of these will be useful even after the Kohler is repaired. I am bidding on a couple of lightly used Honda EU10i's on Ebay, but if I don't win one of these auctions I will probably buy a Hyundai HY1000, since the $1500 price of a new Honda in the UK is just beyond what I can stomach.

I spend a lot of time on my mooring, and 700 or 800 watts of useful power is just what I need to put a full charge on my batteries. During most of the charging cycle, the batts are accepting 10 amps or less anyway (at 28 volts, that's only 280 watts). I can set the Victron to limit what it draws from the genset to 3 amps or so (700 watts). And so I have a perfectly decent charging system, not capable only of really rapid charging (I have the main engine and eventually main genset for that). A petrol (gasoline) genset, unlike a diesel one, doesn't mind being lightly loaded, and a very small petrol genset is much more efficient driving a 280 watt load than a big diesel genset.

I have an excellent spot under my transom platform to set up the suitcase gennie, where I reckon it should be entirely inaudible.

I hate to accumulate more and more redundant gear, but this seems to me like something really useful in fact -- backup to my main generator when -- like now -- I'm having problems with it, and excellent way to keep a charge on the batts on my mooring or at anchor or many other places where I go without shore power.

Do you guys see any flaws in my logic?
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Old 17-06-2012, 08:56   #2
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

Kipor is the other possible make, but don't think there will be much in it. However, bit more noisy than the Honda, all be it at half the price.

Will the Victon take 12v from the Honda and turn it into 24v? to charge the batteries etc?

Kipor IG1000
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Old 17-06-2012, 09:18   #3
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

It would seem like you've got too many distractions and need to prioritize them and tackle them sequentially.

"I installed a wind generator which is entirely useless. Probably defective and .."
OK, how hard would it be to throw a meter on it or otherwise measure the output? Then decide whether to toss it, or keep it. If it is defective and not worth fixing, toss it or sell it for parts. Strike one off the list.

"I have a heavy-duty slow-speed nearly silent Kohler 6.5kW genset,...is broken at the moment, and parts are not stocked in the US . " And since you're not in the US either, I'm assuming this means Kohler jobs it out to China? and that's where the parts have to be found? Can they tell you when parts will ship? If not, cross it off the list for now. Since it is an AC genset from what you say (110V?) how well it charges your batteries will be determined by the charger you've plugged into it. If you're going to use an AC genset and your charger isn't doing a good job, you'll need a new charger, regardless of everything else, unless you buy a genset with a good DC output, which usually is simply a set voltage and no "brains" about charging stages. Not designed for long term maintenance of deep cycle batteries, but neither is the ac+charger approach.

"So I have kind of decided to buy a suitcase generator. The prices are ridiculous in the UK for some reason" Probably protective tariffs, to protect your native generator industry. Or a legacy from some time when there was one.

"But I think that one of these will be useful even after the Kohler is repaired." If you need power for your summer cruise, you have no choice but to buy one. Buy one with a good resale value/reputation and you can always sell it and get back most of your money, when and if the Kohler is fixed.

" lightly used Honda EU10i's on Ebay, but... I will probably buy a Hyundai HY1000,"
Used motors of any kind are often a matter of luck, unless it is warranteed it is simply USED and you don't know how well or how carefully, really. Hyundai have eaten Honda's and Toyota's lunch for years now. If their gensets have a good warranty and specs, I'd call them a very reasonable gamble.


"...700 or 800 watts of useful power ... the batts are accepting 10 amps or less anyway (at 28 volts, that's only 280 watts)."
It does beg for more information to prevent rash guesses. Diesel gensets, at least in the US, are targeted at a WAY higher market and won't be found for the lower end. Assuming you have wet lead batteries, they should charge at 1/5th "C" rate so if they are charging at a 10A rate, either there is something very wrong, or your battery bank only has a 50AH total capacity. Although I can't see that giving you a 24 hour run time for much of anything, so I suspect the 10A charging rate is a measurement error, or there's some other confusion here.

Yes, it is that simple, there's something grossly wrong with this picture. You may be perfectly satisfied with the current performance--but there's still soomething grossly wrong, why waste your time applying a patch on top of a fix on top of a plug, when there's a basic problem that might be fixed, properly, at a lower cost with a better result?

I see no problem with redundant gear, although one might suggest listening to George Carlin's routine on "stuff". And the only flaw I see in your logic, is that the underlying problem (charging at a 10A rate) is not being addressed. If you are not charging properly, and fully, you'll probably see only 50% of the battery life that you could see. And wind up paying 200% for the batteries and again 200% for the fuel in the long run.

Isn't it worth examining the whole picture? Even if you do "just" buy the Hyundai for now so you can go cruising on time?

In the long term...I expect that if there's no commercial solution, you'd want to use a genset that provides 28.8? VDC directly at substantial amperage, and then use a conventional external 3-stage regulator to pass that on to your batteries. The fuel savings AND battery performance should be significantly improved. And perhaps ditch the wind generator, in favor of some solar panels with an MPPT controller. Yes, they are pricey, but they do a great job of slowly, wuietly, and consistently packing amps into the batteries.
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Old 17-06-2012, 09:22   #4
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Kipor is the other possible make, but don't think there will be much in it. However, bit more noisy than the Honda, all be it at half the price.

Will the Victon take 12v from the Honda and turn it into 24v? to charge the batteries etc?

Kipor IG1000
The Victron takes 230v power from the Honda (or Hyundai), and charges the 24v battery bank with it. The Victron will also use power from the small genset for AC loads directly, up to the set limit (in this case probably 3 amps). AC loads over the set limit will be supplied by the inverter. Since those loads are short-term, having 300 to 700 watts going into the batteries over some hours should really get them charged well. I don't reckon I would have to do that every day.

The Kipor is a good bit cheaper than the Hyundai, and apparently the quality has improved in recent years. But the Hyundai is close to the Honda in noise output. This is really important for me since, when I do use the genset, I will be using it for hours on end (that being the whole point of a tiny petrol generator). Don't want to disturb anyone (or myself).
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Old 17-06-2012, 09:24   #5
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

Having to keep gasoline as well as diesel onboard seems like a drawback to me. If the small genset really will supply adequate power then I'd be looking at solar panels. They'll be higher capital cost but zero operating cost.
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Old 17-06-2012, 09:28   #6
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
It would seem like you've got too many distractions and need to prioritize them and tackle them sequentially.

"I installed a wind generator which is entirely useless. Probably defective and .."
OK, how hard would it be to throw a meter on it or otherwise measure the output? Then decide whether to toss it, or keep it. If it is defective and not worth fixing, toss it or sell it for parts. Strike one off the list.

"I have a heavy-duty slow-speed nearly silent Kohler 6.5kW genset,...is broken at the moment, and parts are not stocked in the US . " And since you're not in the US either, I'm assuming this means Kohler jobs it out to China? and that's where the parts have to be found? Can they tell you when parts will ship? If not, cross it off the list for now. Since it is an AC genset from what you say (110V?) how well it charges your batteries will be determined by the charger you've plugged into it. If you're going to use an AC genset and your charger isn't doing a good job, you'll need a new charger, regardless of everything else, unless you buy a genset with a good DC output, which usually is simply a set voltage and no "brains" about charging stages. Not designed for long term maintenance of deep cycle batteries, but neither is the ac+charger approach.

"So I have kind of decided to buy a suitcase generator. The prices are ridiculous in the UK for some reason" Probably protective tariffs, to protect your native generator industry. Or a legacy from some time when there was one.

"But I think that one of these will be useful even after the Kohler is repaired." If you need power for your summer cruise, you have no choice but to buy one. Buy one with a good resale value/reputation and you can always sell it and get back most of your money, when and if the Kohler is fixed.

" lightly used Honda EU10i's on Ebay, but... I will probably buy a Hyundai HY1000,"
Used motors of any kind are often a matter of luck, unless it is warranteed it is simply USED and you don't know how well or how carefully, really. Hyundai have eaten Honda's and Toyota's lunch for years now. If their gensets have a good warranty and specs, I'd call them a very reasonable gamble.


"...700 or 800 watts of useful power ... the batts are accepting 10 amps or less anyway (at 28 volts, that's only 280 watts)."
It does beg for more information to prevent rash guesses. Diesel gensets, at least in the US, are targeted at a WAY higher market and won't be found for the lower end. Assuming you have wet lead batteries, they should charge at 1/5th "C" rate so if they are charging at a 10A rate, either there is something very wrong, or your battery bank only has a 50AH total capacity. Although I can't see that giving you a 24 hour run time for much of anything, so I suspect the 10A charging rate is a measurement error, or there's some other confusion here.

Yes, it is that simple, there's something grossly wrong with this picture. You may be perfectly satisfied with the current performance--but there's still soomething grossly wrong, why waste your time applying a patch on top of a fix on top of a plug, when there's a basic problem that might be fixed, properly, at a lower cost with a better result?

I see no problem with redundant gear, although one might suggest listening to George Carlin's routine on "stuff". And the only flaw I see in your logic, is that the underlying problem (charging at a 10A rate) is not being addressed. If you are not charging properly, and fully, you'll probably see only 50% of the battery life that you could see. And wind up paying 200% for the batteries and again 200% for the fuel in the long run.

Isn't it worth examining the whole picture? Even if you do "just" buy the Hyundai for now so you can go cruising on time?

In the long term...I expect that if there's no commercial solution, you'd want to use a genset that provides 28.8? VDC directly at substantial amperage, and then use a conventional external 3-stage regulator to pass that on to your batteries. The fuel savings AND battery performance should be significantly improved. And perhaps ditch the wind generator, in favor of some solar panels with an MPPT controller. Yes, they are pricey, but they do a great job of slowly, wuietly, and consistently packing amps into the batteries.
My charger's maximum output is 70 amps (at 24v nominal). The battery bank is 420 amp/hours. The batts, when down to 50% or 60%, will accept those 70 amps only for a half hour or so, maybe an hour, then start to taper off. After a couples of hours, they are only taking 10 amps or so. I think this is normal behavior, based on everything I've read.

That is why the big Kohler diesel genset is no good for charging the batteries beyond the bulk stage. 300 or 400 watts is not enough load for a 6.5kW generator, plus even with no load this genset is using more than a liter per hour of diesel fuel. It simply makes no sense unless I am running a load of clothes, heating up water, or otherwise have a long-term AC load on top of the small battery charging load.
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Old 17-06-2012, 09:30   #7
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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The Victron takes 230v power from the Honda (or .
Of course, forgot that bit. The only reason we don't have a smaller genny to replace the 20i is the lack of room otherwise at 400 you can't really go wrong.

The space for the genny is now taken up with a folding bike

I found the rubber feet of the Honda marked the deck so used a rubber backed door mat which helped keep the noise down as well.

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Old 17-06-2012, 09:31   #8
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

I'll have to go with Hellosailer on this one. You are going down a bad road. You stated the "inverter does such a great job running everything". So your only problem is to charge the batts. If the inverter runs everything, why do you need a generator except for backup?

I would start with a good charge controller to protect your batteries and insure a good full charge.

then I would either fix the wind generator, (your charger may be THE problem), or get solar, (I've heard solar doesn't work so well in Englands wet rainy climate).

Or since you are moored in a river, get a towed generator.

24 hours of wind on a 500Watt or better wind generator should be enough to keep the batteries full.

last, I would get the Kohler fixed as a backup, I've got one. The parts are hard to find, but not impossible in the age of the WWW.
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Old 17-06-2012, 09:42   #9
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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Of course, forgot that bit. The only reason we don't have a smaller genny to replace the 20i is the lack of room otherwise at 400 you can't really go wrong.

The space for the genny is now taken up with a folding bike

I found the rubber feet of the Honda marked the deck so used a rubber backed door mat which helped keep the noise down as well.

Pete
Ah, you have one of these Honda gennies yourself. Have you been happy with how it works keeping your batts up? The advantage of the big one is you get faster charger when the batts are down -- and I believe you don't have a diesel genset on board, right?
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Old 17-06-2012, 10:08   #10
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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Ah, you have one of these Honda gennies yourself. Have you been happy with how it works keeping your batts up? The advantage of the big one is you get faster charger when the batts are down -- and I believe you don't have a diesel genset on board, right?
Would loved to have a diesel genny the weight and space would be against us on a 31. The Honda 20i was 4 years old when we sold it on e bay last month (725). Ran perfectly once I had worked out that they are shipped without oil and won't start because there is a safety cut out for low oil. It lived in a damp cockpit locker all its life and never missed a beat. Charging the batteries with a 40 amp smart charger meant it ran on low load so was quiet, only revving up when I plugged the water heater in, or the vacuum cleaner to dust the bilges.

However, the 10i is a completely different genny and may not be as robust. Lots of tails of woe on the UK caravanning forums. That said this could be down to caravan folk trying to run a small town off one of the things.

There is no oil filter so regular changes of the oil are called for. There is no drain plug so this mean tipping up the genny into a drip dray or buy the after market pouring widget which fits into the filler spout. The thing even used up our old 2 stroke mixed fuel when the outboard wouldn't run on it.

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Old 17-06-2012, 10:36   #11
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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I'll have to go with Hellosailer on this one. You are going down a bad road. You stated the "inverter does such a great job running everything". So your only problem is to charge the batts. If the inverter runs everything, why do you need a generator except for backup?
To feed the batts. The point was that the Kohler, even when running (and of course, I will fix it, I hope next week), can't be efficiently run for battery charging after the end of the bulk phase.

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I would start with a good charge controller to protect your batteries and insure a good full charge.
I have excellent charging gear -- an expensive Victron charger/inverter, and on my main engine, a 110 amp (equivalent to 220 amps on a 12 volt system) regulated by an external Adverc regulator.

This is not my problem -- it's how to efficiently produce the power since I am very rarely in any port with shore power, and spend quite a bit of time on board at my mooring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
then I would either fix the wind generator, (your charger may be THE problem), or get solar, (I've heard solar doesn't work so well in Englands wet rainy climate.

Or since you are moored in a river, get a towed generator.

24 hours of wind on a 500Watt or better wind generator should be enough to keep the batteries full.
.
I found out the hard way that a nominal 230 watt wind generator doesn't produce anything like that amount of real power, even in very windy conditions. The best I ever saw over a period of hours was 1 amp/hour per hour -- so 25 watts or so on average. Even if I end up with three or four times that much (what I think I should be getting), it will not make much of a dent in my real power consumption.
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Old 17-06-2012, 10:49   #12
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

Well, I'm committed now. Just won the auction for a "hardly used" (we shall see!) and just serviced Honda EU 10i, for 480 pounds. Used gear like this is somewhat of a crap shoot, I understand, but I tend to take the crap shoot if it means having a superior piece of gear. The extreme quietness of the Honda is a big bonus for my application (running it for hours on end when I'm trying to get a really full charge into the batts). I'll report on how it works out.
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Old 17-06-2012, 12:11   #13
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

Dockhead-
"After a couples of hours, they are only taking 10 amps or so." AH, that couples of hours is a different story, it sounded like you were saying 10A all the time. I can see that running a 6.5kW genset to push less than a single quarter kw (10A@28v) into the batteries is a losing proposition. At that point, I wonder just what % of charge they are already at, and whether using a passive (wind, water, solar) source to finish the charge might not be the simplest solution, instead of letting the Honda drone on for hours?

I have a vague memory (I'm practicing for Alzheimers) from one manufacturerof MPPT equipment that as long as you don't exceed a certain amperage...you can actually raise the charging voltage above the recommneded norms, in order to force more amperage acceptance into the batteries. The limiting factor is apparently neither voltage nor amperage, but actually battery internal temperature. Which begs the question, do any of your charging systems use a temperature sensor on the batteries? Or is there any way you could try raising the charge voltage, to improve acceptance, while monitoring the temperature to ensure safety?

Pete-
You might look to a shoemaker and pick up some Vibram. While it looks like black rubber, Vibram does not mark, does not scuff. Dirt may transfer off it, giving the impression it is marking, but gluing up some Vibram under the rubber pads would also solve any marking problem.
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Old 17-06-2012, 12:34   #14
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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Dockhead-
"After a couples of hours, they are only taking 10 amps or so." AH, that couples of hours is a different story, it sounded like you were saying 10A all the time. I can see that running a 6.5kW genset to push less than a single quarter kw (10A@28v) into the batteries is a losing proposition. At that point, I wonder just what % of charge they are already at, and whether using a passive (wind, water, solar) source to finish the charge might not be the simplest solution, instead of letting the Honda drone on for hours?

I have a vague memory (I'm practicing for Alzheimers) from one manufacturerof MPPT equipment that as long as you don't exceed a certain amperage...you can actually raise the charging voltage above the recommneded norms, in order to force more amperage acceptance into the batteries. The limiting factor is apparently neither voltage nor amperage, but actually battery internal temperature. Which begs the question, do any of your charging systems use a temperature sensor on the batteries? Or is there any way you could try raising the charge voltage, to improve acceptance, while monitoring the temperature to ensure safety?

Pete-
You might look to a shoemaker and pick up some Vibram. While it looks like black rubber, Vibram does not mark, does not scuff. Dirt may transfer off it, giving the impression it is marking, but gluing up some Vibram under the rubber pads would also solve any marking problem.

I think that acceptance is already very low by the time the batts are up to 80%. That's why most cruisers simply cycle between 50% and 80%, using only 30% of their battery capacity. That's also not so good for the batts.

All my charging systems have temperature and at-the-battery-terminal voltage sensors. I can adjust the charging voltage, but the tapering-off acceptance rate is inherent to lead-acid battery chemistry. I doubt that any large improvement could be gained without damaging the batts.

My initial idea for wind power was to use that to bring the batts up gradually when I'm not on board. Maybe if I rutland working properly, it will do just that. But I also need to cover consumption. It would take quite a bit of solar to make the roughly 2.5 kilowatt/hours per day I seem to use. Very expensive, and I don't have that much room.

Well, I've now pulled the trigger on the tiny Honda 900 watt generator. I think it should be a really good solution to this problem. I have been griping about the cost, but in fact I paid considerably less than a single 250 watt solar panel would have cost, and forget about the regulator and cost of installation. Looking at it another way, it cost less than two weeks of berthing in the marina I used to be in (pro-rated at the annual rate!), and has no installation cost.
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Old 17-06-2012, 12:58   #15
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Re: Hyundai 1kVA Suitcase Generator

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make the roughly 2.5 kilowatt/hours per day I seem to use.
Ye Gods, we recently managed to use an extravagant 60 AH and that was with the laptop, fridge and airtop heating all running.

Still, starting the little Honda in the early evening and leaving it to run out of fuel about midnight should solve the problem.



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