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Old 05-11-2010, 14:46   #16
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Charlie J - It is wonderful to get the actual language which is not available to the vast unwashed public boat owners. But if you look closely what I posted is generally the same as you graciously expounded upon in 500 words or more - except mine were a lot fewer words covering the same intent. Like my saying the sky is blue and your coming back with angstoms and wavelength defraction variables. Also nitpicking and parsing/taking quotes out of context is not nice. If you want customers you need to tactfully expound on a basic statement to make it more complete rather than simply trashing with inflammatory declarations.
- - For those who want the "whole truth" they can purchase it for many dollars - which all good professionals should have done to be truly called professionals. But for the vast unwashed ordinary cruisers, the general principles and concepts are not difficult and normally quite rooted in common sense. Being able to explain something is simple common sense words/concepts is more effective for a beginner that getting into high-tech reams of words.
I though Charlie was quite polite. You spoke about the ABYC and stated information that was not in-line, as related to the standards, and Charlie simply addressed them. I did not read any "inflammatory declarations" in Charlie's post. I am sorry if you did but I doubt Charlie was trying to be "inflammatory". He's a nice guy and one hell of a knowledgeable marine electrician. I wish there were more of him in the industry.

When you state stuff in a factual like manner, when it may not be, someone may provide you with more up to date accurate information, as Charlie did. Don't take offense, he just wanted to provide more accurate information as related to your ABYC comments.

I agree with much of your intent but making factual claims like the "sheath" comment is not in the best interest of all. Like you I would MUCH rather see a start battery fused than in a sheath but if fusing is not possible, engine/starter too big etc., then a sheath is a decent alternative and an industry and ABYC supported use to prevent chafe and a short.
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Old 09-11-2010, 11:11   #17
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It sure would be nice if us <insert descriptive word> boat owners could download and or print the Complete ABYC list of standards and be able to download any updates on a regular basis. I would much rather be able to read the published standard itself and not worry about relying on posts on a forum from someone who may or may not be stating correct information.

To my knowledge, and this may be incorrect, the only way you can actually SEE the standards is to pay $$$$ for them.

https://www.abycinc.org/commerce/mem...cationForm.cfm


Looks like $275 gets me a set eh? Does it come with the decoder ring and instructions on the secret handshake?

Imagine if Notice to Mariners was this way, wait a minute, now I get it. Tax dollars dont support ABYC so that must be why we have to pay?

Sorry guys but this information should be available to everyone free of charge IMHO.
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Old 09-11-2010, 11:47   #18
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ABYC operates just like every other standard producing organization that I am aware of; including, but not limited to, ASME, NFPA, ASHRAE, IEEE, ISO, NMEA, UL, CSA, ABS, NIST, etc., etc., etc....they charge a fee for their standards.

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Old 09-11-2010, 11:54   #19
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This is very true. Unfortunate but true. Seems like a lot of questions posted on this and many other forums could be answered if the standards were available to all. But then I suppose its not like they dont cost anything to produce either.
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Old 09-11-2010, 15:40   #20
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And, except for a few "leaks" of the actual ABYC standards documents, it is keep inside the "fraternity" of marine businesses away from the vast "unwashed" normal boat owners. This sets them up as the "grand poo-bahs" and nobody else should dare to try to understand what they are doing or why they are doing it. I think that in some places it is maybe called a "cartel" and somewhat similar to what landside electricians do with the NEC.
- - Making things easier to understand for the end customer is definitely a horrible sin amongst the "brotherhood." Baffle them with tech-talk and then you can charge higher prices. As a retired land and marine electrician I have seen this all too often in other "professionals." Tactful and patient explanations in terms understandable to the non-technical customer gets you repeat and satisfied customers especially when the "competition" is pulling the "holier than thou" or the "only I am qualified to understand . . ." routine. It is a shame, but it is real life.
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Old 09-11-2010, 16:16   #21
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osirissail-
Re-read post #12...this time for content. Maybe take the extra time to read the referenced article in post #13.

Your characterization of the ABYC frankly stinks and belittles the work of literally hundreds of volunteers who work very diligently to produce standards that are timely, workable and above all, ensure personnel safety.

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Old 09-11-2010, 17:21   #22
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Despite what some may think ABYC is not a secret society that is out to take advantage of the average boater. I talk to surveyors from other countries and they all say they wish they had the same thing in therir countries. ABYC is simply trying to protect boaters from builders that might put out a substandard product that could injure its owner. It is also a guild line to protect boaters from themselves (and trust me this is not easy) All any boater has to do is ask an ABYC member for information or a copy of a standard and I am sure they will provide it. The intent is only to improve safety not create a so call secret society. If you do not agree with something call them they will talk to anybody even non members. If you really want change join and become active.
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Old 09-11-2010, 17:54   #23
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Quote:
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And, except for a few "leaks" of the actual ABYC standards documents, it is keep inside the "fraternity" of marine businesses away from the vast "unwashed" normal boat owners. This sets them up as the "grand poo-bahs" and nobody else should dare to try to understand what they are doing or why they are doing it. I think that in some places it is maybe called a "cartel" and somewhat similar to what landside electricians do with the NEC.
What a bunch of garbage, Just like any other "regulatory" body you can get the regulations for a small fee, Even cheaper than textbooks for school!!! I can go the the ABYC site right now and become a member, then purchase texts. No frat at all, just asking that time and materials are compensated for........it's called the free market.
Do you need a cookie
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Old 09-11-2010, 18:37   #24
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osirissail-
Re-read post #12...this time for content. Maybe take the extra time to read the referenced article in post #13.

Your characterization of the ABYC frankly stinks and belittles the work of literally hundreds of volunteers who work very diligently to produce standards that are timely, workable and above all, ensure personnel safety.

Charlie
Must of hit a nerve . . . . try being nice in the first place, it works better.
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Old 09-11-2010, 19:32   #25
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Must of hit a nerve . . . . try being nice in the first place, it works better.

I think you were treated quite nicely and we had a good dialogue, then you got defensive with Charlie's comments. At this stage of the thread the only one I see not being "nice", is you.

Misspeaking about the ABYC, calling marine professionals names and likening professionals to a "fraternity" or "grand poo bahs" or referring to the industry as a "cartel" is rather rude. I did not see Chrlie or anyone eles being anywher near that disrespectful..
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Old 09-11-2010, 20:30   #26
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There is no "one ring to rule them all". Yet. Ideally you want an MPPT controller on the solar panels, which optimizes all of their power into useable power, instead of regulating it by dumping it or wasting it as heat.
And if you alternator can put out 30V, it probably was designed for a 24VDC charging system. If you are running 12V, you might want to look at installing a 14.4V (12v nominal) alternator and regulator, instead of using a 14.4V (12V) regulator but only being able to pull half of the potential power out of your alternator. Most 12V nominal alternators will pout out a maximum of around 17VDC when there is no regulator.
Was your boat perhaps originally built or equipped with a 24VDC electrical system (EU standard) in mind?
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Old 09-11-2010, 20:55   #27
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Does Yanmar say you can drive a 125A alternator without destroying both the main bearing and the warranty?
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Old 10-11-2010, 11:05   #28
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I think the ABYC and what they do is great, I just wish it didnít cost $275 to get a complete copy of the standards. Seems like a lot of money for material costs from a non profit volunteer based operation but I guess thatís what it costs. Sort of surprised some one has not yet digitized a copy and posted it someplace yet but I guess that would be unscrupulous...
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Old 10-11-2010, 11:15   #29
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The Standards are Copyrighted material with a specific prohibition against dissemination without consent so if one upholds the concept of intellectual property, then yes, digitizing and posting would be unscrupulous.

Charlie
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Old 10-11-2010, 15:35   #30
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The ABYC offers an "Individual" membership which is NOT listed on the site. If my memory serves me correctly it is under $200.00. Heck just 8" of the 200+/- books in my marine library cost more than $200.00. Most of these books cost $34.95 and up! I guess books should be free too....?

The ABYC standards are some of the least expensive I have ever had to deal with... Price some of the others and you'd be really horrified.
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