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Old 01-05-2013, 08:33   #76
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
................. If you have the skills to solder well, and the time, by all means crimp, solder and strain relieve and you'll be fine...
If you have made a proper crimp, there is no advantage to soldering it afterwards. And there is the disadvantage of the solder wicking up the wire and creating a stress point.

Crimp it and be done with it. You're finished.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:37   #77
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
................... Open your VHF, or autopilot you will spend a long time replacing the soldered connections.
Now that statement is just stupid. It has nothing to do with the topic of discussion and it adds nothing of value.

I'm really surprised that some folks would so passionately defend poor practices such as soldering marine power cables. I can only believe that they are doing it just because they enjoy arguing on the Internet from behind an anonymous screen name.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:10   #78
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

One of the things we all should have on board is a bench vise. I use this with a 3 corner file to crimp the large battery connectors. Where the crimp lug and the file are positioned into the vise with the file across the connector, insert the wire and begin applying pressure with the vise, until you can't move the vise handle any longer. Loosen, move the file a 1/4 inch and repeat the process, resulting in a double "crimp".

Is this perfect? Probably not.... Yet I did all my battery connections like this 5 years ago and have had zero failures.

It works for me...
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:27   #79
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
If you have made a proper crimp, there is no advantage to soldering it afterwards. And there is the disadvantage of the solder wicking up the wire and creating a stress point.

Crimp it and be done with it. You're finished.
To me (my personal take and the way I wire) a proper crimp meets or exceeds US Mil-Spec, NOT the "barely get you by" ABYC crimp criteria...

I only use tools (professionally) that exceed US Mil-Spec. I do my own testing to ensure they do. For example US Mil-Spec requires 150 pounds of tensile strength on #10 wire. My "yellow" AMP tool repeatably puts up 192 - 193 pounds on #12 wire. Do you, as a DIY, need to exceed or even meet US Mil-Spec, probably not, but I think it would be wise to at least meet USCAR standards, which would be 65 pounds for #10.......

The ABYC standard calls for just 40 pounds on a #10 wire. You could not pay me to wire a customers boat with a crimp tool that only crimps to 40 pounds on #10 wire. In that situation solder, correctly done, may very well help not hinder....

If your crimp tool can only crimp to ABYC standards or even the USCAR standard then there is certainly room for improvement.. Not many "inexpensive" DIY level tools can meet Mil-Spec standards but a number of them meet USCAR standards and even more meet the bare minimums of the the ABYC.

I guess my point is what is a "proper crimp"? Who's definition do you use? ABYC? USCAR? US Mil-Spec? I personally would not be caught dead using a tool that only meets ABYC standards yet some strive to simply get there and consider it a gold standard. I guess my personal definition of "proper crimp" vastly differs from the ABYC and USCAR....

The sad fact is most people have no clue what their tool is even capable of so when using terms like "proper crimp" it does not really mean much without the testing to know how it performs....

If I had my way the ABYC electrical PTC would throw out the current requirements and replace it with USCAR, at a bare minimum, or US Mil-Spec... I know US Mil-Spec will never happen but USCAR would be better than nothing....

I know my own personal definition of a "proper crimp" but I am not sure everyone's definition meets the same critical standards that I hold myself & my tools to, nor may it even be necessary...

As we can see defining a "proper crimp" is not easy....
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:31   #80
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

I saw someone (Maine Sail?) post a picture of how a "proper" crimp would look like when cut through, how it had cold formed into a solid piece of metal. I think that is the "gold standard".
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:37   #81
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
07[/URL]
I do daily, repairing work that you think is ok for the repair BO.....ByOwner.
You are again making unwarranted assumptions.

I certainly understand the ABYC standard that "solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used...." (11.16.3.8) I also understand that the cruising sailor is often unable to access the proper tool for a #8 AWG terminal in real-world applications. Try calling for one on a VHF cruisers net and get back to me on how successful you were.

I resist the implication that electrical work should not be done by boat owners but should only be done by trained professionals in well-stocked workshops, lest the world suddenly come to an end as a result of the sky falling. It's just not that hard to crimp.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against hiring marine electricians to work on boats. I myself hired a qualified marine electrician to track down a ground loop and install a shore-power transformer on a previous boat. It turned out that the ground loop had been caused not by the boat owner but by the refrigerator installation carried out by a commercial vendor. Who'd have known?

I do not in any way advocate shoddy crimps. I personally use a ratcheting crimp tool for 10-22 AWG, and feel it was well worth the investment over the more simple pliers-type crimper that is fine as far as ABYC standards. Although I don't own a crimper to deal with #8 AWG, I can assure you that I won't require a commercial electrician to repair any of the crimps on my boat at any time in the future.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:41   #82
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

Great thread. thanks all. My story, In the late 60s i worked in the NJ pleasure yacht building industry. Big dollar vessels, big dollar engineering, all the power wires were crimped. Tinned stranded wire with tinned copper ends.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:23   #83
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
You are again making unwarranted assumptions.

I certainly understand the ABYC standard that "solderless crimp-on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used...." (11.16.3.8) I also understand that the cruising sailor is often unable to access the proper tool for a #8 AWG terminal in real-world applications. Try calling for one on a VHF cruisers net and get back to me on how successful you were.

I resist the implication that electrical work should not be done by boat owners but should only be done by trained professionals in well-stocked workshops, lest the world suddenly come to an end as a result of the sky falling. It's just not that hard to crimp.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against hiring marine electricians to work on boats. I myself hired a qualified marine electrician to track down a ground loop and install a shore-power transformer on a previous boat. It turned out that the ground loop had been caused not by the boat owner but by the refrigerator installation carried out by a commercial vendor. Who'd have known?

I do not in any way advocate shoddy crimps. I personally use a ratcheting crimp tool for 10-22 AWG, and feel it was well worth the investment over the more simple pliers-type crimper that is fine as far as ABYC standards. Although I don't own a crimper to deal with #8 AWG, I can assure you that I won't require a commercial electrician to repair any of the crimps on my boat at any time in the future.
Bash,

If an owner is capable of doing proper electrical work on board, I fully support them going so. That's why I post to this forum.

I just finished a rewire of a boat the the previous owner had re-wired, all the dc circuits, and when the new owner purchased the boat, he hired a "Marine Electrician" to re-wire the AC circuits.

This owner just forked out 20K to me to again rewire the boat.

The problem with the owner work on the dc, was bad crimps, and woefully undersized wire. He felt it was ok to McGiver his own crimp tool.

Which I can only assume was a diagonal cutter that had been filed down to dull. All of the 22-10 gauge wires just pulled loose with the slightest tug, dozens of the crimps showed signs of heating. The energize to stop the diesel circuit only worked intermittently, and the owner had to raise the hatch and manually stop the engine.

He also went to the same school of crimping 8-2 gauge crimps with a vise grip and screw drive, as you did. Again these connections showed signs of heating, and were easily dislodged with the slightest of tugs.

The "Marine Electrician" that did the AC circuits installed duplex #10 cable, with no safety ground. He installed an inverter as well, with no disconnect he simply spliced into the incoming shore power 8 gauge wire then pigtailed out to the inverter and the AC panel with 12 gauge wire, all with #10 but connectors,. He simple shave the wire so they would fit into the improper sized buts.

The boat I had a service call on yesterday with a water pump problem turned out to be an owner install of a Paragon Sr. $2200.00. He had to make a jumper to relocate the bigger pump. So he proceeded to make the 3 ft jumper from home depot romex, then used an automotive crimp, and dimple crimper. The connection finally burned itself up after five years service. It also burned up the water pump from low voltage. His bill 4 hours labor and another $2200.00 pump.

The boat I'm going to tomorrow is to remove and reinstall and owner installed inverter. Inspection shows he used 2-0 welding cable crimps were made with a hammer and screwdriver. He then connected it to the pos and neg buses which are only rated at 125 amps and some how put the SS lock washers between the bus and the cable.

The symptoms were LV relay chatter. He also direct wired the the ac in and out with no disconnects, nor did he include a disconnect for the dc input. And the worst thing he did is install inverter in the engine room right next to 10 420 amp hr Trojan L-16's, FLA's

So you can see why I support owners doing their own work. They in kind support my business.

Lloyd
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:54   #84
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

the thing that jumped out in that story was the part of having to get a marine electrican to redo the work of a marine electrican

wonder why owners have so much confidence in money spent on "pros"
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:14   #85
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

The idea that soldering after crimping is a "belt and braces" approach is wrong; it is more like replacing a belt with braces. Or in this case, replacing a crimp with solder. The heating of the crimp connection during the soldering process softens the metals and relaxes the grip, compromising the crimp. The quality of the result is dependent on the quality of the soldering, and benefits little from the crimp.

Greg
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:20   #86
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
So you can see why I support owners doing their own work. They in kind support my business.
Of that, I am convinced.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:43   #87
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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the thing that jumped out in that story was the part of having to get a marine electrican to redo the work of a marine electrican

wonder why owners have so much confidence in money spent on "pros"
Don,

That is true of any industry...ever hire an attorney that was bad, then finally find a good attorney, after spending bad money it always feels good to spend good money.

If I have a new client and he wants references, I simple give them the name and phone number of my last 10 customers. Everyone of my customers is happy to field calls.

100% of my business comes from repeat and referral. Ive clients that go back 20 years to this day. Ive clients that fly me thousands of miles to do work that could be hired local.

When seeking someone to do a job of any kind, including brain surgery, always ask for references.

Lloyd
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:58   #88
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

This is an Anchor tool that will make UL approved crimps in a pinch.






Ancor 701010 Heavy Duty Lug Crimper

Item #: ANC701010

Details:

Spring loaded pivot bar, designed for use with a hammer or vise. Makes UL approved crimps. Capacity: crimps 6-4/0 AWG lugs and 6-3/0 AWG terminals.


Lloyd



$78.99 Ancor 701010 Heavy Duty Lug Crimper*-*Ancor*701010 - Ignition Tools and Testers - Ignition Parts - Engine/Mechanical - Boatersland Marine
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:21   #89
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

Just thought I would toss this in....

So we have a #8 gauge wire that is passing 75 amps at 12 volts. Just suppose that the crimp is bad and has developed a slight resistance of 0.0133 ohms.

At 12 volts and 75 amps the total circuit resistance is 0.16 ohms. That is for all wire, crimps, source and load.

That single bad crimp has a voltage drop of 1 volt (I*R = 75 * 0.0133 = 1v). Which brings us to the power the goes into heating that bad crimp.

1 volt * 75 amps = 75 watts. Last time I put my hand on a 75 watt light bulb I was not quite the same afterwards.

I picked 75 amps because it is roughly halfway between the inside and outside engineroom ampacity of a #8 105 degree C wire.

Of course this is a near worst case example but project it to a 2/0 cable coming off your 800 AH battery bank and you can see that you have a real fire in your future.

Regards,

PS actually the last near fire I had on a boat was where the PO dropped the ground wire from the engine/starter into the bilge and rather than fish it out used a #4 (red!) wire for the ground. The #4 wire would handle starting the engine. And was out of sight so forgotten and never replaced. I assume that it got warm but the engine started up quickly (gotta love those old Perkins). Worked fine for 10 years or more. Then one day a spring from the damper plate lodged in the flywheel teeth and stalled the starter on the next start attempt.

With a stalled starter the total time attempting to start was less than 10 seconds and the entire 2' length of the #4 cable melted the insulation and filled the engine room with smoke (I now have a 400A fuse in the started circuit).

Amazing what high currents will do. The cable melted the insulation. Imagine if there had of been a bad crimp. Instant fire. More so with proper sized cable.

Best to get the best crimps that you can. (if there is a moral to the story)
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Old 01-05-2013, 13:33   #90
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

Of course such heating can melt a solder connection as well. That might be a good thing if it breaks the circuit and stops the current. OTOH if the loose wire is hot and finds its way to a ground, maybe not...
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