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Old 30-04-2013, 18:52   #61
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

Having started this passionate and sometimes acrimonious debate I feel I should explain myself:
  1. In most circumstances I would have used a #6 cable instead of #8, or would have ordered the cable from Genuinedealz.com. But the cable in question is already installed, and replacing it would mean fishing it through some pretty tight spaces--not a job I look forward to. The cable is fine but it is currently attached directly to my battery post and I would like to move it to a busbar with #10 studs. So I need to replace the ring terminal with a proper size.
  2. I find it puzzling that many stores offer AWG#8 terminals (insulated and lugs) but don't offer any tools to properly install them.
  3. The "proper" tools all seem to cost in excess of $150--a ridiculous expense for just one terminal, especially since I already own "proper" or at least "semi-proper" tools for all other sizes except #8.
  4. I think Nick of Jedi has the right idea: use a #10 insulated crimper for a #8 lug. This is a reasonable compromise between Mickey Mouse and OCD. I feel reasonably confident I am not going to perish in a flaming inferno because of it.
Thank you to all who have responded, and especially MaineSail, whose well researched advice I always respect and appreciate, if not always follow.
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Old 30-04-2013, 18:57   #62
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
If you bought a boat with soldered electrical connections, replacing them with crimp connections should be part of your plan to make the boat safe and reliable.
I disagree.
Soldered, or preferably soldered and crimped connections are perfectly reliable, provided some sensible precautions are taken to minimise vibration problems.

The first boat I fitted out had just such connections and they are still working 25 years later.

The boat concerned has had 2 changes of standing rigging, three sets of sails. one new motor, but the wiring is (nearly all) original.

Open your VHF, or autopilot you will spend a long time replacing the soldered connections.
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Old 30-04-2013, 19:20   #63
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Would you rather replace them in the harbor with proper tools and materials available or out on the water, drifting towards the rocks?

If you bought a boat with soldered electrical connections, replacing them with crimp connections should be part of your plan to make the boat safe and reliable.
Hilarious. A new way to die at sea. First it was using an old generation anchor, then GPS failure without celestial, now having a soldered wire termination. Hilarious.

If I was fitting out a boat in a yard, yeah, borrow an expensive crimper. But I have been out cruising for many years. I'm not going to buy or carry a fancy crimper. I've always soldered my large terminals. I use the stove. Takes a little practice. Seems to work just fine. If movement of the cable is an issue that needs to be solved with any type of termination. I dip them in anhydrous lanolin while hot. Then heat shrink. Never a failure in twenty years.

There are about a million soldered connections in the electronics of a yacht. 99.9999% reliable.

Do what it takes to get the job done and go sailing. Soon. Obsessing about crimps is just silly.
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Old 30-04-2013, 19:27   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I disagree.
Soldered, or preferably soldered and crimped connections are perfectly reliable, provided some sensible precautions are taken to minimise vibration problems.

The first boat I fitted out had just such connections and they are still working 25 years later.

The boat concerned has had 2 changes of standing rigging, three sets of sails. one new motor, but the wiring is (nearly all) original.

Open your VHF, or autopilot you will spend a long time replacing the soldered connections.
Indeed, soldered is fine as long as it's done right and the cable is supported beyond where the solder wicked in.
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Old 30-04-2013, 19:40   #65
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Bash may not have directed his comments at me, hopefully not, and it could have been another member, so I will reserve judgement on his comments until "some commercial members" either officially rules me in, or out......
I was referring directly to post #16, which I'd quoted in the post that concerned Maine Sail, who had nothing to do with post #16.

Although I was not in any way referring to my old friend Maine Sail in post #35, had I wanted to take issue with Maine Sail's arguments I would have objected to the photograph he posted in #30, which is anecdotal evidence at best. Were I inclined to take photographs of failed wiring, I could share a similar photo of a failed terminal in my pickup truck, displaying a terminal that was installed at the factory by the factory. I'm sure they had the right tools when they did that job.

Let me clarify, as well, that I've long been an advocate of the constructive role commercial members often play in this forum as fonts of great advice. We have experts who have given generous advice on such things as watermaker installations, diesel repairs, et cetera. Unfortunately, a few commercial members resort to hysteria to sell goods or services. This has been seen on anchor threads especially, but not exclusively.

I should also point out that the bits of hysteria that have crept into this thread are not exclusively coming from commercial members. All this talk of boats catching on fire and children losing their fathers! Sigh. Is anyone actually using #8 AWG on battery cables? I doubt it. Most of us are using AWG 0 or 00, I would guess. That's a whole different story, and I haven't heard anyone on this thread suggest using makeshift repairs on such cable, with the possible exception of the idea to mill a pair of bolt cutters into a crimper offshore. That's actually an idea I want to hold onto in the unlikely event that I would ever have to repair a battery terminal while offshore without a lug crimper. Those of us who venture offshore in race boats will seldom have the proper tools for such repairs because of the weight penalty involved.

If anything good has come out of this thread, it's the realization that #8 AWG
probably isn't the best idea for boating since so many of us have tools to deal with #6 and #10 but nothing in between. What does Maine Sail think about that?
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Old 01-05-2013, 00:15   #66
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Unhappy Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I was referring directly to post #16, which I'd quoted in the post that concerned Maine Sail, who had nothing to do with post #16.

Although I was not in any way referring to my old friend Maine Sail in post #35, had I wanted to take issue with Maine Sail's arguments I would have objected to the photograph he posted in #30, which is anecdotal evidence at best. Were I inclined to take photographs of failed wiring, I could share a similar photo of a failed terminal in my pickup truck, displaying a terminal that was installed at the factory by the factory. I'm sure they had the right tools when they did that job.

Let me clarify, as well, that I've long been an advocate of the constructive role commercial members often play in this forum as fonts of great advice. We have experts who have given generous advice on such things as watermaker installations, diesel repairs, et cetera. Unfortunately, a few commercial members resort to hysteria to sell goods or services. This has been seen on anchor threads especially, but not exclusively.

I should also point out that the bits of hysteria that have crept into this thread are not exclusively coming from commercial members. All this talk of boats catching on fire and children losing their fathers! Sigh. Is anyone actually using #8 AWG on battery cables? I doubt it. Most of us are using AWG 0 or 00, I would guess. That's a whole different story, and I haven't heard anyone on this thread suggest using makeshift repairs on such cable, with the possible exception of the idea to mill a pair of bolt cutters into a crimper offshore. That's actually an idea I want to hold onto in the unlikely event that I would ever have to repair a battery terminal while offshore without a lug crimper. Those of us who venture offshore in race boats will seldom have the proper tools for such repairs because of the weight penalty involved.

If anything good has come out of this thread, it's the realization that #8 AWG
probably isn't the best idea for boating since so many of us have tools to deal with #6 and #10 but nothing in between. What does Maine Sail think about that?
Bash,

I'll take the hit, here is the link that you refer-to How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

I do daily, repairing work that you think is ok for the repair BO.....ByOwner.

What, I don't think you, nor the owner of this site, understand, is that the liability of those held to a higher standard.

This site, by your representation, are liable to the investigation by DOT, CG investigation of an accident.

You, by the virtue of being an Advisory, along with this site for commission of that title, will be held to the same standard, as a professional marine electrician/installer.

So if you want to hand out advise, make sure you protect yourself and this site.

If you don't know the right answer, don't answer.


How would you feel, if you depended on information from a source that, you respected, and they gave you mis-information, that your families lives depended on,

and they were WRONG?



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Old 01-05-2013, 01:08   #67
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Post Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

In excess of 90% of all marina, and boat fires are, electrical related!

Why would anyone intentionally take a short cut, when wriring, their own boat?

Lloyd
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:38   #68
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What I find hysteric is promoting taps with screwdriver and hammer for crimping awg8 terminals!
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:02   #69
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
In excess of 90% of all marina, and boat fires are, electrical related!

Why would anyone intentionally take a short cut, when wriring, their own boat?

Lloyd
Nice pun with "short" cut lol. Wouldn't be all bad crimps surely. That sounds like a lack of suitably placed breakers and fuses or otherwise crappy circuit design.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:13   #70
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Hilarious. A new way to die at sea. .............
I'll bet you are a stitch in comedy clubs.

I suppose when one cannot back up his position with facts, it's best to resort to sarcasm.

Go ahead and keep soldering your connections. I don't know you and I don't care. Me, I will make them the correct way and my advice to anyone who wants to do it correctly is to do the same. That would be crimping with the correct terminal or lug and the correct die.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:16   #71
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Old 01-05-2013, 05:16   #72
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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................... If anything good has come out of this thread, it's the realization that #8 AWG probably isn't the best idea for boating since so many of us have tools to deal with #6 and #10 but nothing in between.
It is odd that vendors sell the cable and connectors but not the tool to crimp them with.

I bought a windlass with factory installed #8 pigtails. I had no choice but to deal with it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:19   #73
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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.... That's actually an idea I want to hold onto in the unlikely event that I would ever have to repair a battery terminal while offshore without a lug crimper. ....
Simple - go to the auto parts store and buy a battery terminal with a built in clamp for the cable. I think West Marine sells these also.

Not a good permanent solution, but fine for an emergency.
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:01   #74
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Again, soldering is a poor way of making marine electrical connections. A poor way. If soldering were acceptable, boat builders would do it. They don't and there's a reason.

Do it right or don't do it at all. Pay someone who knows how to do it right and sleep well at night. Or do it half a$$ed and break down or worse at sea.
One reason why boat builders use crimp connections is that is far cheaper to make an acceptable crimp joint than an acceptable solder joint.

Good soldering technique requires more training and experience than good crimping techniques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Would you rather replace them in the harbor with proper tools and materials available or out on the water, drifting towards the rocks?

If you bought a boat with soldered electrical connections, replacing them with crimp connections should be part of your plan to make the boat safe and reliable.
Rubbish - it simply depends on the workmanship of each type. A well soldered joint properly supported is fine; and better than a average quality crimp joint, let alone a poor quality crimp joint.

As an aside, I have seen many crimpers that appear to be making "proper" crimp connections fail calibration tests. In fact I have seen brand new out of the box top brand crimpers occasionally fail calibration tests.

I don't disagree that crimping is usually the preferred best practice but that doesn't make soldering no good.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:18   #75
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Re: How do you Crimp #8 AWG Terminals?

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I don't disagree that crimping is usually the preferred best practice but that doesn't make soldering no good.
We need to keep in mind, historically, why organizations such as the ABYC disallow "solder only". It is because of poor practices being used which then lead to failures.

There is nothing wrong with a properly made crimp/solder joint. The key words here being "properly made".. I think I can count on one hand the number of well executed, properly made solder joints I have come across. This is not to say I have not seen very good soldering just that I see a lot more good crimping than I do good soldering.

If you have the skills to solder well, and the time, by all means crimp, solder and strain relieve and you'll be fine...

It is messes like these that got solder the bad reputation it has on boats. Unfortunately, from what I see on a daily basis, these are more the norm than the exception:


This was soldered with no strain relief. It was on a sport fishing boat and it fractured, fell into bilge water, and ate the vessels below water metals.... This little incident, due to improper technique, cost the owner thousands to repair....
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