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Old 29-04-2013, 23:56   #16
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Me too. Vice grips first, followed by a tap with the hammer/screwdriver combo.

Bash...as a CF adviser..I must say that the CF is not very discretionary.

Anyone whom that would advise; to use a vise-grip, followed by a hammer, and screwdriver for a crimp connection. Is not an adviser to be recommended.

Just for the Record: a crimp wither by design or by McGiver needs 2 things;

1. A form.
and
2. A point source compression.

I'm sorry you fail both test.

You don't deserve a CF Advisory title,
nor
A McGiver title.

Lloyd
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Old 30-04-2013, 00:45   #17
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by banjoship View Post
I recently bought a hydraulic lug crimper, which has a range of dies. Works a treat. The dies are metric cross-section, but can be matched to AWG. Does a very neat job. I bought mine for $50 in Australia, saw the exact same set on Ebay US for $160. Be careful. It is cheap chinese, but so simple I don't think anything can go wrong.

Lee
Other than it being chinese, that tool can make you money when 'out there'.
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Old 30-04-2013, 01:07   #18
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Bash...as a CF adviser..I must say that the CF is not very discretionary.

Anyone whom that would advise; to use a vise-grip, followed by a hammer, and screwdriver for a crimp connection. Is not an adviser to be recommended.

Just for the Record: a crimp wither by design or by McGiver needs 2 things;

1. A form.
and
2. A point source compression.

I'm sorry you fail both test.

You don't deserve a CF Advisory title,
nor
A McGiver title.

Lloyd
A bit harsh but there is the truth. Now, consider if say, Minaret in his profession were to take such 'short cuts', I propose no owner would be satisfied with the results. Will it hold? Yes, but for how long? My experience is the right job is achieved with the right skill using the right tool. "My experience'" mostly involves custom home building. The reason I mention that is because of the myriad of 'short cuts' I could have taken but none would constitute value commensurate to the compensation given.
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Old 30-04-2013, 01:31   #19
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

If you have uninsulated connectors, you can just poke the wire into the connector and then soldered them using a gas torch and solder bar (or big a** solder iron). I use the Ebay hydraulic crimpers personally and they work pretty darn good. They get into tighter spacers better than the "bolt-cutter" versions as well.
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Old 30-04-2013, 01:42   #20
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

Soldering battery lugs is discouraged by those in the know. The point where the solder ends, up the wire from the lug, becomes a potential point of failure. The solder makes the wire rigid, until it suddenly ends. The wire will tend to flex, work harden, and break at this point.

Crimping a proper lug will not create this sudden interface, and thus will be more reliable.

Greg
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Old 30-04-2013, 01:49   #21
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
Soldering battery lugs is discouraged by those in the know. The point where the solder ends, up the wire from the lug, becomes a potential point of failure. The solder makes the wire rigid, until it suddenly ends. The wire will tend to flex, work harden, and break at this point.

Crimping a proper lug will not create this sudden interface, and thus will be more reliable.

Greg
As a matter of fact I am in the know and the solder tends to wick up the wire which doesn't result in a sheer "interface" but rather a transition. A crimp on the other hand presents just such an interface unsupported by insulation to boot. Welding leads are often done this way because a soldered joint is a far more electrically and mechanically reliable conductor in the long term then a crimped connection, and they do get flexed way more than a battery lead would in normal use.
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Old 30-04-2013, 03:53   #22
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

NASA, USAF, AMP (connector manufacturer) all rate crimp connections more reliable than solder.

A quote from AMP:

"Some tests specifically show detrimental effects due to soldering or solder-dipping (e.g. soldered crimp terminations can lose some ability to withstand vibrations and flexing, due to solder embrittlement of the copper wire, and/or due to solder wicking up the strand of stranded wire to form a short length of solid conductor near the termination). The terminated conductor then does not have the flexure strength characteristic of strand wire, and should behave more like solid wire which fails quickly in flexure testing."

That said, the methods mentioned here span quite a range of reliability. The vise or hammer/screwdriver methods are easily the least reliable. Why? Because a crimp joint must be created with enough pressure to cold flow the stranded copper wire into a solid wire, mating with the terminal with no air gaps; only then will low resistance and high mechanical strength be obtained. I have my doubts about the hammer-crimper for the same reason the old non-ratcheting crimper fell out of favor: it does not guarantee a consistently high pressure, and is too dependent on the technique of the user. It is worth noting that the plain hand crimper was standard issue for electricians 50 years ago, and in trained (strong) hands it performed well - and in just about everyone else's hands it was/is very unreliable. Soldering with a torch or iron probably is more reliable than the vise-grips, but not a proper crimper. The heat source is just too blunt a weapon. The heat will likely affect the copper wire and insulation (in a bad way) well past the stress point at the end of the solder. The kind of solder joint that NASA talks about for a reliable connection requires proper tools, techniques (taught in schools), and materials. BTW soldering a crimp terminal is frowned upon, again for a host of reasons. A proper crimp is at the top of the heap for reliability, but of course at the price of an expensive tool.

I can't speak for the welder application, so I won't.

I have certainly soldered a lot of terminals and wire in my time, and anecdotally the results were fine. None of the joints I soldered together on the boat have ever failed - but all of the terminals are crimped, with a ratcheting crimper or the larger T&B crimper, and they don't fail either.

My bottom line is that crimping is best (assuming the right tool), and soldering (assuming some skill) is still plenty good enough for a sailing boat (not exactly the vibrating environment of a NASA rocket). The differences are not enough to lose sleep over (yes, time for bed now) or get in a dust-up about.

Greg
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Old 30-04-2013, 04:08   #23
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
As a matter of fact I am in the know and the solder tends to wick up the wire which doesn't result in a sheer "interface" but rather a transition. A crimp on the other hand presents just such an interface unsupported by insulation to boot. Welding leads are often done this way because a soldered joint is a far more electrically and mechanically reliable conductor in the long term then a crimped connection, and they do get flexed way more than a battery lead would in normal use.
I have oft considered this point; welded Vs crimping, but to this day I have not ever had a properly crimped terminal fail.

(Forgive the poor grammatical sentence structure.)
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Old 30-04-2013, 04:40   #24
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Harbor Freight sells a hydraulic crimper with removable dies for large gauge wires. One of the exact same models offered on Ebay. As an occasional use item it works great for me. With one of their coupons it can be purchased for under $50. Comes with a nice case for all the parts.
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Old 30-04-2013, 05:08   #25
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
NASA, USAF, AMP (connector manufacturer) all rate crimp connections more reliable than solder.

A quote from AMP:

<snip>

Greg
In reference to "regular" wiring I agree 100%. In fact AMP, Molex etc use crimp connectors for signal wiring. AMP and Canon also supply connectors with solder lugs for power applications so you can draw your own conclusions from that. I have no disagreement that solder connections can suffer from fatigue and electrolysis in lighter wiring but when it comes to lower gauge wires like battery, welding cables etc I think the regular arguments against solder connections really don't hold up.

Having said that, I prefer to crimp and posses a rather expensive pair of ratchet crimpers with insulated and non insulated dies, along with the hydraulic crimper for power cables but I will still solder connections in certain situations.
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Old 30-04-2013, 06:20   #26
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
Soldering battery lugs is discouraged by those in the know. The point where the solder ends, up the wire from the lug, becomes a potential point of failure. The solder makes the wire rigid, until it suddenly ends. The wire will tend to flex, work harden, and break at this point.

Crimping a proper lug will not create this sudden interface, and thus will be more reliable.

Greg
Why?

You think that if you make a really strong crimp which compresses the strands and constrains them in the connector shaft it is not creating a *sudden interface* transition from rigid to flexible?

Answer: of course it does.

Wires shouldn't be bouncing around. Restrain them and mitigate the strain from rigid to flexible you fear.

What is more a concern is the corrosion which finds its way around each and every strand of wire.

Properly soldered and supported wiring is perfectly fine and even preferable in most cases to what is the typical corrosion prone crimped connection
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Old 30-04-2013, 06:36   #27
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
NASA, USAF, AMP (connector manufacturer) all rate crimp connections more reliable than solder.

A quote from AMP:

"Some tests specifically show detrimental effects due to soldering or solder-dipping (e.g. soldered crimp terminations can lose some ability to withstand vibrations and flexing, due to solder embrittlement of the copper wire, and/or due to solder wicking up the strand of stranded wire to form a short length of solid conductor near the termination). The terminated conductor then does not have the flexure strength characteristic of strand wire, and should behave more like solid wire which fails quickly in flexure testing." So that's why the soldered terminals on my lighed trailer failed. And here I thought it was repeated submersion in salt water.

That said, the methods mentioned here span quite a range of reliability. The vise or hammer/screwdriver methods are easily the least reliable. Why? Because a crimp joint must be created with enough pressure to cold flow the stranded copper wire into a solid wire, mating with the terminal with no air gaps; only then will low resistance and high mechanical strength be obtained. I have my doubts about the hammer-crimper for the same reason the old non-ratcheting crimper fell out of favor: it does not guarantee a consistently high pressure, and is too dependent on the technique of the user. It is worth noting that the plain hand crimper was standard issue for electricians 50 years ago, and in trained (strong) hands it performed well - and in just about everyone else's hands it was/is very unreliable. Let me place a value on that. I once knew a man who could, by hand alone, loosen nuts. Since the nuts were torqued to 28 ft lbs I termed his hands as "28 ft lbs hands". He had a grip which would drive you to the floor.Soldering with a torch or iron probably is more reliable than the vise-grips, but not a proper crimper. The heat source is just too blunt a weapon. The heat will likely affect the copper wire and insulation (in a bad way) well past the stress point at the end of the solder. The kind of solder joint that NASA talks about for a reliable connection requires proper tools, techniques (taught in schools), and materials. BTW soldering a crimp terminal is frowned upon, again for a host of reasons. A proper crimp is at the top of the heap for reliability, but of course at the price of an expensive tool.

I can't speak for the welder application, so I won't.

I have certainly soldered a lot of terminals and wire in my time, and anecdotally the results were fine. None of the joints I soldered together on the boat have ever failed - but all of the terminals are crimped, with a ratcheting crimper or the larger T&B crimper, and they don't fail either.

My bottom line is that crimping is best (assuming the right tool), and soldering (assuming some skill) is still plenty good enough for a sailing boat (not exactly the vibrating environment of a NASA rocket). The differences are not enough to lose sleep over (yes, time for bed now) or get in a dust-up about.

Greg
Vice grip crimping is for amateurs. It is the realm of backyard mech-a-niks who lack the tools or wherewithal.
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Old 30-04-2013, 06:41   #28
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by banjoship View Post
I recently bought a hydraulic lug crimper, which has a range of dies. Works a treat. The dies are metric cross-section, but can be matched to AWG. Does a very neat job. I bought mine for $50 in Australia, saw the exact same set on Ebay US for $160. Be careful. It is cheap chinese, but so simple I don't think anything can go wrong.

Lee
Interesting. Just last night I posted an entry on my blog outlining my crimping tools and my plans to purchase one of those hydraulic lug crimpers:

The world encompassed: Crimping and saving

I figured that with the number of 8 AWG to 2/0 AWG crimps I'll be doing this summer, the thing would pay for itself in about a dozen crimps. When the lug and wire are large, I really think it's important to seal all voids and to cold-form the wire. A hammer and die are not ideal for this, in my view.

At the same time, I've done 8 AWG crimps of sufficient soundness with a 10 AWG ratcheting crimper, but it left scratches.
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Old 30-04-2013, 06:45   #29
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Why?

You think that if you make a really strong crimp which compresses the strands and constrains them in the connector shaft it is not creating a *sudden interface* transition from rigid to flexible?

Answer: of course it does.

Wires shouldn't be bouncing around. Restrain them and mitigate the strain from rigid to flexible you fear.

What is more a concern is the corrosion which finds its way around each and every strand of wire.

Properly soldered and supported wiring is perfectly fine and even preferable in most cases to what is the typical corrosion prone crimped connection
Yabut a pretty good case is stated for the flexural strength of strand which is lost when soldering reduces the strands to solid wire.

While I have not yet experienced a failure in proper crimping I have noted failures in soldered terminals, ie, a trailerable boat. My summation was repeated dunkings in salt water yet now I must reconsider it was because of soldering which rendered the wire to be less flexible. Inspection has proved that to be the case although I did not heretofore understand the mechanism of failure.
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Old 30-04-2013, 06:49   #30
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Re: How do you crimp #8 AWG terminals?

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Vice grip crimping is for amateurs. It is the realm of backyard mech-a-niks who lack the tools or wherewithal.
This customer of mine was on the receiving end of a PO with a pair of vise grips... My engine won't start.......

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