Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-08-2012, 10:16   #1
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,096
House Battery Replacement

I am in need of replacing my house batteries. I have requested a quote on Trojans or Lifeline from a local dealer. He indicates that his regular batteries."Discover Energy Advanced AGM EV4DA-A" are better than Lifeline and he will not bring in Lifeline. Trojans are apparently more money and don't last as well but he is willing to bring those in.
I have done an internet search of EV4DA-A batteries but have not found much info. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on these ?

BTW, the spec sheet shows 235 Ahr @ 20 hr rate and 1000 cycles @ 50% dod.

My current charger is a Charles that has an AGM mode but isn't 3 stage charging - should I replace that as well ?
__________________

__________________
Jd1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 11:20   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: On board in Alanya, Turkey
Boat: Hunter Legend 420 Passage
Posts: 626
Re: House battery replacement

See this link for details:

http://www.harrisbattery.com/pdfs/solar_sell_sheet.pdf

They seem to be designed for standby and solar power systems, so may not like being charged fast at very high currents. Fast charge at up to Capacity X 5 is what Lifeline claim. Discovery's website says 0.3C. It also talks about about: "Discover™ proprietary Vision Max® Paste Formula." This suggest they are more like Gells than AGMs.

Not all AGMs are the same - beware!
__________________

__________________
sailinglegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 11:40   #3
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,096
Re: House battery replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
See this link for details:

http://www.harrisbattery.com/pdfs/solar_sell_sheet.pdf

They seem to be designed for standby and solar power systems, so may not like being charged fast at very high currents. Fast charge at up to Capacity X 5 is what Lifeline claim. Discovery's website says 0.3C. It also talks about about: "Discover™ proprietary Vision Max® Paste Formula." This suggest they are more like Gells than AGMs.

Not all AGMs are the same - beware!
Which is why I am asking here and at almost $800 each (I need 2) they are not something I want to gamble on.
I am not looking forward trying to extract the old batteries and getting the new ones in

Good catch on the 'paste' - completely missed that one. Thanks!
__________________
Jd1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:27   #4
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: House battery replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Which is why I am asking here and at almost $800 each (I need 2) they are not something I want to gamble on.
I am not looking forward trying to extract the old batteries and getting the new ones in

Good catch on the 'paste' - completely missed that one. Thanks!
Paste and gel are two different things. All lead-acid batteries use lead paste, as far as I know. I don't think it means they're not AGM's.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:43   #5
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13,042
Re: House battery replacement

jd, there are three major battery makers in the US (Johnson Controls, Deka/EastPenn, and...I've got a block on the third) with Lifeline and a few other small players. EVERY one of those companies franchises distributorships, so your battery guy probably won't carry Lifeline because he didn't or can't buy a franchise and would have to pay a higher price for them. He may have a better source for Trojan, who are a larger supplier AFAIK.

Discover? Harris? I don't know them, they sound like a smaller regional player. Everyone these days is claiming they make miracle batteries. If you'll be sailing in their area, then you ask what's the warranty, and what's the price. Whatever they claim, if it doesn't have a replacement warranty, the claims for life and power don't really matter without something to back them up.

Trojan are a known factor--and usually wet acid, not AGM that I know of. Lifeline is a known factor. And fairly unique in that they call for equalizing their AGMs. Harris? Dunno. But if they say AGM, I'd expect they are AGM, regardless of "paste".

I'd bet on the Trojans as being the most economical, given the competition you can get from places selling them as traction (golf cart) batteries.
__________________
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 12:53   #6
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,750
Re: House battery replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
jd, there are three major battery makers in the US (Johnson Controls, Deka/EastPenn, and...I've got a block on the third) with Lifeline and a few other small players. EVERY one of those companies franchises distributorships, so your battery guy probably won't carry Lifeline because he didn't or can't buy a franchise and would have to pay a higher price for them. He may have a better source for Trojan, who are a larger supplier AFAIK.

Discover? Harris? I don't know them, they sound like a smaller regional player. Everyone these days is claiming they make miracle batteries. If you'll be sailing in their area, then you ask what's the warranty, and what's the price. Whatever they claim, if it doesn't have a replacement warranty, the claims for life and power don't really matter without something to back them up.

Trojan are a known factor--and usually wet acid, not AGM that I know of. Lifeline is a known factor. And fairly unique in that they call for equalizing their AGMs. Harris? Dunno. But if they say AGM, I'd expect they are AGM, regardless of "paste".

I'd bet on the Trojans as being the most economical, given the competition you can get from places selling them as traction (golf cart) batteries.
I bought $2000 worth of Trojans in England (probably more than double what the same batts would cost in the States). They are not a great deal more expensive then crappy "leisure" batts sold here -- maybe 30% more. And they have proved so far to be much more robust than those crappy Varta batts I had before. Seems to me like a very good value.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 15:05   #7
Marine Service Provider
 
Scott Berg's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Aboard
Boat: Seaton 60' Ketch
Posts: 959
Re: House battery replacement

Harris Battery and Discover Energy Info:

Harris Battery (Harris Battery Company, a leading wholesale battery distributor) is a large east coast distributer of several brands including Odyssey and Discover but I was unaware that they sold to the public. I've used them for years as they have daily delivery to most Chesapeake Bay yard. They were the major Trojan distributer for years but now represent a range of other brands. One of those is Discover, a Chinese built AGM battery that advertises itself as using a different chemistry (Dry Cell AGM) than Lifeline or Trojan. Their website has some details, Welcome to Discover Energy Corp. | Discover Energy. I get the feeling that they were once a large Asian OEM and are now marketing under their own brand. We've installed a few dozen Discover batteries over the past 6 years, mostly L16 and 8D formats and, to date, have had very happy customers. They are expensive of course, and a bit heavier then a traditional gel or agm battery of the same form factor.

I'll see what I can find from our installation notes but my recollection is that they have traditional form factors and behave just like traditional AGM batteries. I suspect that they may have slightly higher resistance than Lifeline but haven't done the testing to know; next time I get a fresh set in we'll do some tests and post them

Scott Berg
CHARDONNAY BOATWORKS, LLC
__________________
Scott Berg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 15:46   #8
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,096
Re: House battery replacement

Scott, thanks for the info. The Discovery batteries do indeed have a higher internal resistance to Lifelines as their max recommended charge rate is only 0.3C if I recall correctly. I think Lifeline can do 5C. Life cycles appear about the same between the two brands.
__________________
Jd1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 16:22   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: House battery replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Scott, thanks for the info. The Discovery batteries do indeed have a higher internal resistance to Lifelines as their max recommended charge rate is only 0.3C if I recall correctly. I think Lifeline can do 5C. Life cycles appear about the same between the two brands.
The Lifelines can do 5C for a few minutes. They'll very quickly dial back to much lower charging amperage.

(based on current study, with data provided by Concorde Batteries in CA)

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 16:54   #10
Commercial Member
 
Mark Johnson's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Bern NC
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 1,565
Re: House battery replacement

I suggest a pair of Trojan L-16s (360 Ah), or L-14s (340 Ah)... These tall 6V batteries require a custom made box, but IF taken care of, can give you 15 years of RELIABLE service. (Far more than even THEIR 12V batteries) Is is less expensive, over the long haul.

Mine have performed perfectly, and with "Hydro Caps" I only water them a few times a year.

I WOULD get a Statpower / xantrax (or similar) 4 stage charger / equalizer, and bring the batteries back 100% daily. This IS practical... the books are wrong! (I use solar for this, and they are full by noon). This was after 16 years cruising the boat, and 12 as full time liveaboard.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	086_86_00 - Copy.JPG
Views:	167
Size:	196.2 KB
ID:	44636   Click image for larger version

Name:	P8290437 (2).jpg
Views:	154
Size:	414.0 KB
ID:	44637  

__________________
"Let us be kind to one another, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle".
Mark Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 17:27   #11
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: House battery replacement

Good advice, Mark!
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 17:28   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
bstreep's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX/Port Aransas, TX
Boat: 1990 Macintosh 47, "Merlin"
Posts: 2,274
Re: House battery replacement

We bought our Lifeline 8Ds from these folks - who will ship them. Best price I could find ($650 each for 8Ds, delivered). Most of their business is motorhomes, but they do a LOT of volume, therefore their stock turns regularly. It is ALL they do, and they are insanely nice.

Lifeline Battery Pricing
__________________
Bill Streep
San Antonio/Port Aransas, TX
bstreep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 20:49   #13
Marine Service Provider
 
Scott Berg's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Aboard
Boat: Seaton 60' Ketch
Posts: 959
For those going with the L16 format Dyno Batteries makes boxes for both two and four

http://www.dynobattery.com/products.htm

Scott
__________________
Scott Berg
WAØLSS
SV CHARDONNAY
Scott Berg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 20:52   #14
Jd1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: Catalina 36 MKII
Posts: 1,096
Re: House battery replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by bstreep View Post
We bought our Lifeline 8Ds from these folks - who will ship them. Best price I could find ($650 each for 8Ds, delivered). Most of their business is motorhomes, but they do a LOT of volume, therefore their stock turns regularly. It is ALL they do, and they are insanely nice.

Lifeline Battery Pricing
Thanks, good source to know! I am in Canada so shipping will be an issue but it is interesting to see the difference in prices. I was quoted $850 per 4D Lifeline compared to $581 from your source. Might even be worthwhile to have them shipped to a drop off location just south of the border. More stuff to think about ....

So how do you guys manhandle 130 lb battery onto the boat and through the companionway down the stairs ? Is there a trick or is it a case of bribing extra hands ?
__________________
Jd1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2012, 20:56   #15
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Boat: 40' Silverton Aftcabin with twin Crusaders
Posts: 1,590
Re: House battery replacement

Jd1--

First---before getting to batteries, how do you use your boat??? Are you away from a dock or a place to charge your batteries for more that 2 days? If this is how you use the boat, stick with the Charles.

You really need to assess your energy requirements along with the needed recharge rate. Do you have a genny on board? A genny or windgenerator or solar are needed. But consider a generator and also consider a good 3 stage minimum charger rated at least 50 amperes. A 50 ampere charger will output at least 14.2+ while charging at about 40 amperes. That is a couple hundred watts so a small 1 KW genny should work.

The charging curve for older style chargers is horrible for recharging quickly and by that I mean 2+ hours. The older unit will take days.

Batteries!!! And please remember, this is my opinion only! No way would I shell out $800 hard earned bucks for a pair of any kind of batteries!!!!!

I just repowered my boat after chasing Trojan T105s for over 3 days!!! Trojan might be a good battery however there are many good batteries on the market and as mentioned earlier in this thread there are essentially only 3 battery manufacturers in the country. Back to Trojan! The cheapest I could get those things here in Massachusetts was in the $210 range including your old battery. Now to be fair.....and this was discussed somewhere in the forums, one can purchase T105s around Ft. Lauderdale in Florida for about $85 each!!!

And then there are the HUGE GUYS that require three men and a boy to lift. Why in the world would anybody use those big pigs!!! I just replaced a pair of them with golf carts, batteries I can pick up. Sure when was in my early 20's I could lift the moon, not today though. I had one big job getting those pigs out of my boat!

I purchased Penn 230 AH golf carts from Sams Club for $88 each with trade. I purchased 4 or them for two banks. My total cost was just about $400 including Massachusetts' sales tax. Don't believe the rhetoric of some sales people that lead acid batteries require pedigree papers for fine performance.

Foggy
__________________

__________________
foggysail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.