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Old 14-05-2009, 12:43   #1
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Honda Gensets in Parallel

Looking at future gen sets, and the Honda looks promising.
Wonder if anyone on this board has used it in parallel operation and if so what your expirencies are.

2 of the EU 2000i's paralleled together would give 3.2 Kva ~27amps, burn .46gal/hr, and weigh around 92lbs, and cost ~2300.

1 of the 3000i would cost 2200 weigh 134 lbs, and give 2.8kVa at .47 gal/hr.

Wonder how the sound out put would be when parallel together. I like the idea of the weight and fuel use of the 2000, but not sure if it would meet my needs which would be to run a 16000 btu ac, some microwave use, a electric induction hotplate, and of course battery charging via a inverter/charger. Not all at the same time of course. But under best case, say 3000 watts for 10 min or more. The victron inverter will power share off the batteries, so I could run higher loads for a short time and exceed the recommended rating of the genset.
Also how has these units held up to the marine environment over time?

Thanks,
bob
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Old 14-05-2009, 12:50   #2
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I would never leave any generator out where it can get splashed with salt water. Indoors is better but then you are dealing with the smell and the danger of storing gasoline inside. Perhaps outside inside a waterproof bag might be best?

Its not as easy as wiring the hots and neutrals in parallel in order to double the available power....like what can be done with DC. That's one of the advantages of DC on a boat. You can easily tie in multiple sources of DC into your electrical system

To put two AC generators in parallel, the phases must be matched. The generators must rotate at exactly the same speed and remain at the same phase. Are these gensets capable of phase matching? I have never heard of any small gensets capable of phase matching. I have only seen generators capable of this on larger commercial vessels...but times may have changed for yachts. Perhaps Honda did this with one of their little generators?...I doubt it though.

If they are incapable of phase matching, you could wire up two separate AC systems isolated from each other and run one generator for each system.

Why not buy a larger generator?
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Old 14-05-2009, 13:03   #3
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The Honda 2K as well as the Yamaha equivelents are really DC generators with inverters. There is a special cable set you buy that connects them for joined use. With only a 16K BTU air conditioner you might get by with just the one Honda. I have a 20K BTU AC and it will run the AC barely.

I'm looking for a proper water cooled gas generator around the 3kw range myself. Hopefully quieter that way.
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Old 14-05-2009, 13:24   #4
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I am curious how these honda gas generators do in the warmer climates of the tropics? Since they are air cooled can you expect to run them without concern when the temperatures gets into the triple digits?
We would like to purchase one as a backup to our diesel genset but we were concerned with how they handle heat.
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Old 14-05-2009, 13:48   #5
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Old 14-05-2009, 14:24   #6
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Amytom,

"are really DC generators with inverters" Huh!! Could you explain that please, you got me scratching my bald spot
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Old 14-05-2009, 14:30   #7
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AC generators are actually cheaper and more reliable. They dont have brushes or carbon contacts for one thing. Given its a Honda, I would bet the native output of the generator motor is AC. Its also easier, more efficient and cheaper to rectify an AC source to DC than to take a DC source and invert it to AC.
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Old 14-05-2009, 15:31   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
Amytom,

"are really DC generators with inverters" Huh!! Could you explain that please, you got me scratching my bald spot
It's true, the EU's are fitted with inverters.

The reasoning is that an AC generator has to run at fixed RPM under all loads to maintain the right frequency, so require bigger motors. The Hondas (and some Yamahas) vary their RPM to suit the load, (the inverter sorts out the frequency) so can use smaller motors = lighter and more fuel efficient.

http://www.hondampe.com.au/repositor...roduction.aspx
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Old 14-05-2009, 17:48   #9
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The Honda's do have a cord you can purchase from Honda that lets you parallel the output. Built in function so to speak.

I have run my Cruise Aire from my generator, it however is not 16000 BTU. I can limit the number amps my inverter draws and it will use batteries when it exceeds the draw limit. This has meant that one generator has always been sufficient for my cruising needs.

It has held up very well (Oh, by the way, I have a Kipor. A Chinese version of the Honda). Almost four years now? I store it in the forward sail locker when underway, and put it in the anchor locker when I am using it. My thought is to rig it semi- permanately in the sail locker and run it from there without having to muscle it out. I plug it into my shore power inlet with my shore plug. I have used it during an extended power outage we had at home and in my trailer when in remote spots.
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Old 15-05-2009, 03:55   #10
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The Honda EU1000i, EU2000i, EU3000 Handi, and EU3000is generators can be paired with another identically sized unit to double your power capacity. Parallel capability allows you to use two smaller, lighter generators to do the work of a much larger generator - without sacrificing portability.
Goto:
Honda Power Equipment - Honda Generators - Parallel Capability
and:
Honda Parallel Operation Cables

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
AC generators are actually cheaper and more reliable. They dont have brushes or carbon contacts for one thing. Given its a Honda, I would bet the native output of the generator motor is AC. Its also easier, more efficient and cheaper to rectify an AC source to DC than to take a DC source and invert it to AC.
The Honda Generator uses an alternator to produce high voltage multi-phase AC power. The AC power is then converted to DC. Finally the DC power is converted back to AC by the inverter. The engine is free to run at any speed, as required by the load demand. Conventional gen sets must run at 3600 RPM to produce 60 Hz output.
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Old 15-05-2009, 06:19   #11
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Interesting Thread.

2 questions

What is the actual efficiency level attained after the ac-to-dc-to-ac path, considering heat and component losses.

How do the smaller units cope with the "5 x running load" factor for start-up of, say a 16000btu air conditioner.
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Old 15-05-2009, 06:34   #12
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... How do the smaller units cope with the "5 x running load" factor for start-up of, say a 16000btu air conditioner.
They don't.
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Old 15-05-2009, 06:34   #13
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I can run my 20K BTU AC from just one Honda 2K. I can't run anything else at the same time though. I also cant run the heater. (resistive element not reverse cycle). If I rig two together I can run the AC, charger, microwave, and everything else at the same time. Problem is when running for extended periods of time the noise gets to you. Also, where to place them so they don't vibrate off the deck. (I do tie them in also).

I personally would rather have a built in, water cooled, gas generator, that I dont have to pull out of the locker and tie down everytime someone wants to use the microwave.
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Old 15-05-2009, 06:36   #14
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They don't.

This also depends on the AC unit. Some require a lot more start-up current than others.
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Old 15-05-2009, 17:20   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amytom View Post
I can run my 20K BTU AC from just one Honda 2K. I can't run anything else at the same time though. I also cant run the heater. (resistive element not reverse cycle). If I rig two together I can run the AC, charger, microwave, and everything else at the same time. Problem is when running for extended periods of time the noise gets to you. Also, where to place them so they don't vibrate off the deck. (I do tie them in also).

I personally would rather have a built in, water cooled, gas generator, that I dont have to pull out of the locker and tie down everytime someone wants to use the microwave.

Amytom, how does the sound output compare when running two in parellel against one ?
Since they are both ~60dB, does having two double the sound or .... I know having two kids talking to me at the same time quadrupules my sound irritant level, but what about two of these hondas.

The kippor is a china knock off of the japanese version, which is kind of funny considering thats japans MO, for the longest time. Copy others, improve on it and sell it cheaper.... thats how they put a lot of our companies out of business.
I too would prefer a diesel genset, but considering the large cost of the unit, plus the cost of installation, plus the fact that it seems to be the number one maintaince item the smaller honda generators seem like a good deal. And of course you can take it anywhere, home, beach etc.

I am considering refiting my current propane based cooking system to all electric. This would include 2 viking 110v induction cooking plates, and a convection microwave oven, plus a propane magma grill on the aft deck.
To power this, I would need a genset, although I could run it off the inverter, once I upgrade to a victron 3kV inverter.
That plus the a/c, and charging... for one third or one quarter the price of a marine diesel genset seems like a good deal.
Now the question on my mind is the EU2000i or the EU3000i?
But due to the wieght, and fuel savings, it seems like the 2000i is a better choice. And from reading here and other places, seems like the honda beats the kippor, although the kippor is cheaper.



Thanks for all that have contributed so far to this discussion.
Bob
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