Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-12-2008, 13:38   #1
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,775
Help us design for wind/solar

Hi all;

We am finishing the installation of an arch on the back of our boat. It is constructed of aluminum, with the top being simply 2" pipe. The distance across is about 75 inches, and the two tubes about 10 inches apart. I have a wind pole that would mount by welding a 10x10" pad between the tubes, anywhere we want left to right.

I want to come up with a plan to include wind and solar. I know the issues with putting a wind gen that towers over solar, but I have no real world experience with this. My thoughts were to put two 60-85 watt panels perpendicular to the arch, and the wind gen on a pad. But in what configuration? Do I need to buy shade tolerant panels, which are less wattage for a given area? Should I ditch the wind genny, and put one large 200w -ish panel up? If I do the two panels and the wind genny, how should they be placed on the arch?

One thought - prevailing winds on the east coast down to the Carib - would this have an effect on where to put the panels in relation to the genny, when only considering the relation of the boat to the sun while at anchor?

I would love for folks to chime in on how they would put this all together. We currently have a 300AH house bank, and a single starter battery. let the games begin!!!

Chris
__________________

__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 13:41   #2
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
How about a wind generator on it's own mast at the stern? You can use the mast for all kinds of different mounts, and the panels will have no shade from the wind generator......i2f
__________________

__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 14:10   #3
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,138
The wind generator should be on the port side so it doesn't shade the solar panels. The wind is generally in an easterly direction. Here's mine. I don't have solar so I put it on the starboard side for trim reasons.
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 14:15   #4
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,775
Won't work

That won't work, the arch is at the stern, so putting another pole up would not really accomplish anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
How about a wind generator on it's own mast at the stern? You can use the mast for all kinds of different mounts, and the panels will have no shade from the wind generator......i2f
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 14:53   #5
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
It only takes the vertical space of 2 1/2 inches, and then add some bracing to the stern pulpit. The pics might help?

Sometimes we are surprised what will, and will not work. Lots of times people come into my shop, and try explain something, and I have no idea what they are trying to describe to me. When I get the car on the rack, and see for my own eyes. It becomes very clear.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sailor_eating.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	185.5 KB
ID:	6032   Click image for larger version

Name:	ARMADA%7E1[1].JPG
Views:	117
Size:	192.7 KB
ID:	6033  

__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 15:44   #6
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,775
Sure, it could be done, but to what benefit? The arch is sturdy enough to carry the loads of the wind genny and panels, there is room for them, so I am not sure what I would gain by adding another pole into the mix. It would have to be right next to the arch, so in my mind it would shade almost exactly the same as if it was on the arch.

I'll try and post a picture to show how it looks right now when I get home.

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
It only takes the vertical space of 2 1/2 inches, and then add some bracing to the stern pulpit. The pics might help?

Sometimes we are surprised what will, and will not work. Lots of times people come into my shop, and try explain something, and I have no idea what they are trying to describe to me. When I get the car on the rack, and see for my own eyes. It becomes very clear.
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 18:09   #7
Registered User
 
roger.waite's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
Boat: Samsara, a Ross 930
Posts: 380
This seems like a classic "It all depends" situation.

Given your suggestion of 2*60ish W panels plus a wind generator, I might worry most about buying a wind generator that keeps working well in light winds. Above 10 kts wind, the generator will dominate your power production. (So my answers assume you generally cruise and moor where there is some wind ... and other stuff.)

Next, I may worry about the angle of solar panels to the sun (especially in the middle-ish latitudes where I generally sail). Then I would worry about shading.

Some shading seems inevitable on cruising boats ... clouds, rigging, masts, sails, etc. As you suggest, avoiding monocrystaline panels may help.

Your answers will depend e.g. on your energy budget and wind conditions. I assume from your 300 AH battery bank that you typically use less than 150 AH per day. At 13 kts, you can get that from a wind generator (e.g. KISS output curves).

You know your boat, how you sail and where you anchor, but I would be cautious about ditching the generator. It may become invaluable on passage, when power budgets grow to feed nav lights, plotters, radars, whatever. And it keeps working when sails produce shade, or you are heeled away from the sun.

100 W of flat mounted panels may only produce 50 AH or so on an unheeled boat, under a cloudless, shadeless, tropical sky. Above 7-8 kts wind, you can meet a 100 AH budget with the solar panels and a wind generator on board.

Below that (after a while), engines go on or switches go off ...
__________________
roger.waite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 18:51   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Houston TX
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 25 "Turtle"
Posts: 364
Images: 35
I have an 85w Carmanah solar panel kit......

mounted flat and attached to the wind generator mast.

I don't seem to have a lot of problems keeping my batteries up even in winter here in Texas. At the moment, thanks to IKE, I don't have any shore power at all and havent had since the storm 10weeks ago.

I have an AirX Marine 400w wind generator. I know some people complain about their(AirX) noise but I can't seem to hear what they hear above the clanging halyards, slapping waves, and wind in the rigging of all the other boats.

I use 2 160Ah 4D AGM batteries for the house(under the floor, on top of the keel) and a group 31 for starting the little diesel. The 31 is mostly on a seperate line so I use a small(15w) flexible panel for keeping the charge topped up. It self charges if the engine is running.

I have minimal extras beyond my Engel fridge/freezer. I have the usual VHF, GPS/Plotter, stereo, nav/cabin lights and sometimes a laptop hooked to my AIS. I don't have A/C or a flatscreen TV but I do have a 1200w inverter that will power most of my smaller electric tools like 3/8"drill, sabre saw, palm sander or small disc grinder. It won't handle my belt sander or my circular saw but thankfully I don't have to use them much on board away from the dock.

I am quite happy with my set up and don't seem to see to much problem from the shadows or from the flat mounting. If I put more of a stain on the system it might be different however...........m
__________________
I must go down to the sea again.........
cantxsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 19:19   #9
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,775
Depends, image

Yep, all depends. And since plans can and do change, I want a flexible system that will work well in as many scenarios as possible. We will be using much less than 150ah a day.

The wind gen that has my attention right now is the new Air Breeze. If I read things correctly, they would put out ~33ah a day in 8kts, and about double that, 66ah, in 10 kts of wind.

Some panels that have caught my attention are ones that I have not seen being used on a boat - Kaneka 60W. Anyone have any experiece with these?

They are large in footprint for their output, but I may be able to fit two of these with the genny in the center. They are shade and heat tolerant, and put out ~60 volts so a mppt controller would be needed. Since we have no bimini, the extra shade coverage might come in handy - when at anchor we have a nice sun shade that covers from the back of the boat to a few feet from the mast, but when sailing, there is no shade to speak of.

here is the arch, not completely finished yet, but you can get the idea:

__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2008, 19:46   #10
Registered User
 
roger.waite's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Plimmerton, New Zealand
Boat: Samsara, a Ross 930
Posts: 380
Tend to agree with your central mounting solution, and your approach.

The following wind generator test may interest you ... it is not clear whether they test the latest model of the Air Breeze, but it always seems to rank in the top 3 models they tested. One point of interest is that several models in the test seem to produce rather less juice than their manufacturer's output curves might suggest ...

http://www.robwink.nl/pdf/superwind/...Marine%20Wind%

Tell us how it all works!
__________________
roger.waite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 06:22   #11
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
Nice looking arch. Maybe a short mast centered will give less shadow on the panels.....i2f
__________________

__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wind Turbine Mast Design Considerations RBEmerson Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 9 01-12-2008 09:04
MPPT which one is best for solar/wind gen Ram Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 2 26-02-2008 23:04
Wind generator or Solar panel scgilligan General Sailing Forum 24 11-08-2007 20:32
wind or solar chad.lawie Atlantic & the Caribbean 14 23-11-2006 12:30
Wind vs Solar NoTies Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 14 27-12-2005 08:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.