Help! Fischer Panda hard to start! Mystery?

[okolehao]

I'm at my wits end trying to figure out why my Fischer Panda 6000 with 550 hours is hard to start. The mystery is usually that once it does get started, it runs fine and I can setup a load, and everything runs great with a clean exhaust.

First off - this is what it takes to start the thing.
1. Charge up a 80 amp starting battery on the battery charger/ warm up the boat
2. Glow plug, 10 secs
3. Start 3 - 5 secs (engine cranks, nothing happens)
4. Glow plug some more
5. Start 3 - 5 secs (engine cranks some more)
6. Turn off power to fischer control panel (why not?)
7. Turn on again
8. Repeat steps 2 - 5 another 2 - 3 times
9. Finally it goes, blows a bunch of water and some whiteish smoke for 5 - 30 secs, then goes clean
10. Run for 5 - 10 mins than slowly apply loads
(need to make sure I don't exceed 45 secs of cranking, otherwise I waterlog my engine's exhaust)

Once the generator engine is running, restarting short time later, up to a few hours, can be started fairly quickly. Right after it stops, quicker, later it's faster.

Here is what I've tried to fix it
- cracked the banjo bolt on the solnoid / changed the all copper gaskets on fuel lines
- bled the engine like crazy, ensured no bubbles
- changed primary and seconard fuel filters, looked for leaks
- changed the oil, and sent it to a lab for testing
- tested battery while cranking, it was 10.5 volts
- hooked a booster battery while cranking
- changed the water pump">raw water pump
- changed the exhaust elbow

What's wrong?

[billknny]

A diesel engine takes three things to run: Air, Compression, and Fuel.

We can almost always eliminate a lack of Air as the problem...

That means lack of compression and/or Fuel are the cause of 90% of diesel problems.

Have you changed the fuel filter(s)? Checked the fuel lift pump?

[okolehao]

Originally Posted by billknny

A diesel engine takes three things to run: Air, Compression, and Fuel.

We can almost always eliminate a lack of Air as the problem...

That means lack of compression and/or Fuel are the cause of 90% of diesel problems.

Have you changed the fuel filter(s)? Checked the fuel lift pump?

Yup, changed both sets of fuel filters, filtered the fuel tank, put clean diesel in, and changed the air filter for good measure to rule out the air component. Fischer Panda's have a button that runs the electric fuel lift pump manually, which I did and bled the engine with the pump, so I ensured it worked.

[Sailing Hope]

We just went through 2 years of hard starting with a Panda mini 8. We went through the common stuff, fuel filters, bleeding the fuel delivery lines, check fuel pump output, etc. You might have covered this but just in case you didn't get a good look when you changed the exhaust elbow.

We changed the exhaust elbow because we saw signs of a pin hole leak and salt spots on the electrical housing. When we removed the elbow and started to clean the exhaust elbow and exhaust manifold interface, we found large build ups of hard carbon. We removed a carbon chunk almost as big as a walnut. We installed the new elbow and gasket. Our Panda now starts in about 2 seconds. For us....case solved.

[a64pilot]

To me it sounds like an inop glow plug, you sure it actually works?
The whitish smoke when it does start is likely excess fuel, your problem is not fuel related I don’t think.
I guess it could be a blocked exhaust elbow, but a blocked exhaust usually shows up as low power, won’t take a load etc.

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

To me it sounds like an inop glow plug, you sure it actually works?
The whitish smoke when it does start is likely excess fuel, your problem is not fuel related I don’t think.
I guess it could be a blocked exhaust elbow, but a blocked exhaust usually shows up as low power, won’t take a load etc.

Agree. Especially as the engine only has 550 hrs.

[hobopacket]

Have you checked compression just to rule it out? Low compression could make it hard to fire (start).

[svHyLyte]

Check and reset your valve clearances. It should be done every 500 hours or less. Even a minor offset can make starting very difficult or impossible (as I discovered). Contact Panda's office in Ft. Lauderdale for the correct clearance and how to rotate the engine to TDC. After resetting the valves on our engine after it became balky, the thing started right up and ran well.

FWIW...

[sail50]

Call Fisher Panda they have been very helpful with my mine 12. Mine had a bad control card (if you have one). I was difficult to start from cold and easy when it was hot. If you can advance the throttle while is cranking it may help.

[a64pilot]

It certainly could be valves too tight, easy to check and probably needs it anyway. Too easy to rule out.
Always start with the easy, cheap stuff first.

[Cheechako]

They are famously difficult engines. Do you know what engine base it is? IIRC, we had trouble with newly installed ones and it was something about sensors and the various "fail safe " devices. One was water flow?
If I had one I would tear all that off if possible. Your main diesel doesnt have all that does it?

[Chuck Hawley]

Is it possible that you have a high resistance connection in your starter circuit from the battery to the starter (or the ground wire from the generator back to the battery) that isn't allowing the glow plugs to heat up sufficiently? Cranking at 10.5V seem OK but not stellar. You may want to measure your current draw with glow plug pre-heat only, and compare to what the MFR says it should be.

Chuck

[Mr O]

I have a Fischer Panda FC 4000 thats about 17 years old but only 179hrs on it. Ran fine until the other day. It turns over but will not fire up. I am working with Alan Cohen at the Ft Lauderdale office ((954) 462-2800 x234) and he has been very helpful. He also suggested checking valve clearance, as well as fuel solenoid, fuel pressure at injector, fuel filters, lift pump operation, injector condition. I had the injector and pressure pump serviced, but no pressure at injector yet. Will check solenoid valve next. FYI: close the seacock until your genset fires up to prevent seawater from hydro-locking the engine!

Please keep us posted on your process and good luck!

[dneve]

My Next gen 5.5 kw sometimes loses prime and hard to start so PO installed a squeeze bulb in the fuel line to pressurize the line. It starts right away.

[1paulg]

I was on a boat that had a Fisher Panda that all of a sudden became difficult to start - as usual when these things go wrong we were in a remote place and spent best part of a week trying to eliminate things . In the end it was the lift pump for the fuel wasn’t powerful enough for the lift required ( it was a cat and a professional instal originally) . As we primed it before starting it would kick over then later splutter an d stall and we figured the effort of hauling the fuel higher than the pump was specced for meant it gradually lost pressure and all of a sudden it became a problem . Once replaced with an adequate pump the problem was gone ....