Help! Fischer Panda hard to start! Mystery?

[okolehao]

Thanks for all the advice. I tried starting the engine the other day, and could not get it to kick. But today, I was able to get it going (it's colder here in New York, and the winter is comming slowly). Once going, I noticed a couple things:

- There is a grayish/carbon deposit in the exhaust water, looks kind of muddy looking, not fuel/oil since it does not sheen (exhaust elbow was just changed, but I guess there are other places with that stuff)
- There was not any white smoke or I did not come out quick enough to notice
- I've been working with Fisher Panda, but they don't know what to do, they said I should crack the injectors while starting, but the engine eventually DOES start and run
- I ran the engine for a good hour or two under a solid load, and noticed the muddy deposit disappeared
- I restarted the engine 2 hours later and it started right up quickly
- Sometimes while going back and forth trying to start, the starter button stops working and all I hear is the fuel pump, no starter motor. Is there some kind of lock out? Usually, I cycle the power off, and the starter motor works again

(quick question, while starting the engine I accidently left the intake value closed for 15 - 30 secs before I ran to open the intake cock, does that mean I need a new impellor? )

The best working guesses now are :
- soot in the exhaust manifold creating backpressure, making the engine hard to start?
- glow plugs not working, but I've had the same problems even on 85F/30C days (not sure why we don't use the metric system here in US!?)
- value timing? how do I test this?
- Fuel pumps, Starter/Fuel relays and/or Fuel Solenoid not opening correctly or on-time (but it does start and works fine eventually, usually these things mean it would not start)
- starter motor not working so well, (though I don't hear any bad sounds from it)
- Compression bad, I really hope not!!!

The engine is now winterized, but is there anything I can do to test over the winter? Remove starter and take to the auto-parts store for testing?

thanks for all the help!

[TheThunderbird]

I have FP Type8 of 7,3kW Kubota engine (2005)

These engine are great diesel, but TOO much dependent on electric gear, for stopping, starting, solenoids (there are TWO) etc.
Imo, your problem is just the lift pump, as you already checked for solenoid and fuel line +filters.

Buy a bigger one, spend 70$, not 30$, for a truck circulation pump, not a mazda economy car. And have a joker valve before the engine.

That bigger lift pump put the squeezing ball KO, but also made it totally unuseful.
BEST, would be a gravity day-tank with manual pump!! My Dream!!

I still have occasional starting problems, which disappear if I don't use the glow pre-heater. WHY?

Advice: clean the fresh coolant system, where soot adds up...

PS l love to add additional acoustic insulation about my genny, but feel concerned about over-heating and air intake. Thinking about a large PC fan...any ideas?

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by okolehao

Thanks for all the advice. I tried starting the engine the other day, and could not get it to kick. But today, I was able to get it going (it's colder here in New York, and the winter is comming slowly). Once going, I noticed a couple things:



- There is a grayish/carbon deposit in the exhaust water, looks kind of muddy looking, not fuel/oil since it does not sheen (exhaust elbow was just changed, but I guess there are other places with that stuff)

- There was not any white smoke or I did not come out quick enough to notice

- I've been working with Fisher Panda, but they don't know what to do, they said I should crack the injectors while starting, but the engine eventually DOES start and run

- I ran the engine for a good hour or two under a solid load, and noticed the muddy deposit disappeared

- I restarted the engine 2 hours later and it started right up quickly

- Sometimes while going back and forth trying to start, the starter button stops working and all I hear is the fuel pump, no starter motor. Is there some kind of lock out? Usually, I cycle the power off, and the starter motor works again



(quick question, while starting the engine I accidently left the intake value closed for 15 - 30 secs before I ran to open the intake cock, does that mean I need a new impellor? )



The best working guesses now are :

- soot in the exhaust manifold creating backpressure, making the engine hard to start?

- glow plugs not working, but I've had the same problems even on 85F/30C days (not sure why we don't use the metric system here in US!?)

- value timing? how do I test this?

- Fuel pumps, Starter/Fuel relays and/or Fuel Solenoid not opening correctly or on-time (but it does start and works fine eventually, usually these things mean it would not start)

- starter motor not working so well, (though I don't hear any bad sounds from it)

- Compression bad, I really hope not!!!



The engine is now winterized, but is there anything I can do to test over the winter? Remove starter and take to the auto-parts store for testing?



thanks for all the help!

You can set the valves with the engine winterized and cold. You can also measure the resistance of each glow plug and measure the voltage to them without starting the engine. Be sure to measure the voltage while the glow plugs are attached, too low will cause them to not heat up.

The valves are easy and should be done anyway. The engine on a FP spinning at 3600 rpm will seat valves rapidly!!

[okolehao]

Just a quick update. I haven't checked the valves, but i'm thinking compression. I just the results from the oil test.

there may have been residue from winterizing the watermaker in the oil sample I took from my oil change container, but the Iron seems pretty scary. I think compression/rebuild sounds scary for me...

DIAGNOSIS Severe piston, ring and cylinder wear indicated. Silicon and Sodium levels indicate internal coolant leak developing. Water content acceptable. Fuel dilution satisfactory. Please provide missing oil information at next sample submission. Action: Check for source of coolant leak and repair. Inspection for source of wear may be warranted at this time. Change oil and filter(s) if not already done. Resample after corrective action to further monitor.


Metals (ppm) Iron (Fe) 304 Chromium (Cr) 9 Lead (Pb) 1 Copper (Cu) 4 Tin (Sn) 3 Aluminium (Al) 197 Nickel (Ni) <1 Silver (Ag) <1 Titanium (Ti) <1 Vanadium (V) <1 Contaminants (ppm) Silicon (Si) 26 Sodium (Na) 107 Potassium (K) 7 Additives (ppm) Magnesium (Mg) 44 Calcium (Ca) 2464 Barium (Ba) <1 Phosphorus (P) 1134 Zinc (Zn) 1311 Molybdenum (Mo) 1 Boron (B) 41 Contaminants Water (%) <0.05 Coolant Yes Physical Tests Viscosity (cSt 100C) 15.1 Fuel (%) <1 Soot (%) Infrared 0.1 Physical / Chemical Base Number (mgKOH/g) 8.7 Oxidation (Abs/0.1mm) E2412/D7414 17

[Fiveslide]

One oil sample from a contaminated container is beyond unreliable for diagnostic purposes. However, with that information, adjusting the valves and then testing compression would be my next step, given the symptoms.

If your valves are out of adjustment, a compression test will also be unreliable for diagnostic purposes.

[okolehao]

Thanks for all the help. We finally solved the issue. The injectors were fouled up and the glow plug relay was not working correctly.

New injectors and a new relay fixed the issue for us.