Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-08-2010, 22:07   #16
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by JiffyLube View Post
In my trade we don't make money if we have to go back and fix something that we didn't do exactly right, so I spend the extra time getting it right the first time. I never want to go back to a job I did, unless I'm going back to make more money because of the good work I did.

Bingo....!!!! We have a Winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________

__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2010, 23:37   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 21
Wow 30 years is a long time. How long would the copper have lasted bare 2months or 15years? How much slower does it corrode?

How do you inspect the wiring for corrosion? How often?

If you sealed the wires and connectors correctly why would you have to go back and redo your job lol.

Is the tinned wire so an electrician can do a bad job sealing and have the wire last just long enough for them not to get a callback?

I dont own a boat at the moment, Im asking information for in the future when I can. Obviously if the codes did require tinned wire then i'd have to use that. At the moment I do have some automotive wiring to do this got me thinking about wiring in general and corrosion. The automakers dont do a great job of preventing long term corrosion in anything. Maybe its the road salt. But the fact is theres alot of nontinned wire out there. I want to know what it does and doesn't do. Just my curiosity.
__________________

__________________
gulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2010, 23:59   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 21
Thanks maine-sale for the product info. Wow fishwife that thread is scary entertaining lol.
__________________
gulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 05:26   #19
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Gulf,

These two wires were installed at the same time by an unknowledgeable owner who thought wire nuts were safe for boat use.

Note the tinned wire vs. the bare copper this was in a relatively dry are of the vessel....
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 15:38   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 21
If they were in a wetter area would they both be black?

I still see some copper color or the right side. I can show you stripped old extension cord I have at home with all the wire as black as the insulation.

How do you check your wiring for corrosion? Measure the terminals with a voltage meter while under load? How often?
__________________
gulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 15:51   #21
Registered User
 
s/v Breakaway's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chesapeake & BVI
Boat: Cal 34 & Pearson 424
Posts: 221
Wouldn't the liquid tape work even better than the shrink tubing, and cost less and take less time?

Also, I thought Practical Sailor recently reported that shrink tubing doesn't provide significantly improved corrosion resistance - or was I just dreaming?
__________________
s/v Breakaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 16:10   #22
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
I don't feel heat shrink does anything for corrosion if the the wire terminates in a fitting. The fitting in is still open to the air etc. and one would think liquid tape could seal that. I do feel the heat shrink helps hold the connector to the wire better.

In my mind for the most the Practical Sailor article last month almost said it doesn't matter what you do. But I did notice it didn't try coating a connector with liquid tape after making it up. Yes would be hard to work on afterwards, bvut the point is hopefully not even having too.
__________________
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 16:38   #23
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I don't feel heat shrink does anything for corrosion if the the wire terminates in a fitting. The fitting in is still open to the air etc. and one would think liquid tape could seal that. I do feel the heat shrink helps hold the connector to the wire better.
Adhesive lined heat shrink over butt connectors are what seal well pump motors to the well feed wires 200 +/- feet below the surface of the earth and they remain submerged below water for upwards of 15-20+ years before the well pump eventually dies and needs replacement.

The technology of adhesive lined heat shrink is well proven in the well industry where they work BELOW water not just in a humid environment. Sta-Kon's (a T&B trade name) have been used for many, many years by well drillers. The Sta-Kon butt connectors (adhesive lined heat shrink & butt connector), on my last well pump, lasted 23 years and were still bone dry when the well pump was replaced. If liquid electrical tape actually worked as well I suspect the well drillers would opt for the significantly less expensive method of liquid tape.

I used to be an HVAC and pump rep and sold to their wholesalers. If they could find a cheaper alternative these guys would be the first to use it, trust me.

As for the PS study Drew only used a few "sealed" connectors.

"Only a few sealed connectors were used, and that is because they are so effective. Push-on connections and terminal strips - more common points of failure - were used in greater numbers."

"tinned copper terminals that are softer around the eye, tougher in the shank, and and covered by an adhesive filled shrink tube top the list."
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 18:05   #24
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
I agree that heat shrink is going to be best for a butt connection. never said otherwise.

PS - I also have been a pump engineer and sales rep so I must be right!
__________________
sailorboy1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 18:18   #25
Registered User
 
JiffyLube's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Boat: Islander Freeport 36
Posts: 567
Images: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulf View Post
Wow 30 years is a long time. How long would the copper have lasted bare 2months or 15years? How much slower does it corrode?

How do you inspect the wiring for corrosion? How often?

If you sealed the wires and connectors correctly why would you have to go back and redo your job lol.

Is the tinned wire so an electrician can do a bad job sealing and have the wire last just long enough for them not to get a callback?

I don't own a boat at the moment, Im asking information for in the future when I can. Obviously if the codes did require tinned wire then i'd have to use that. At the moment I do have some automotive wiring to do this got me thinking about wiring in general and corrosion. The automakers dont do a great job of preventing long term corrosion in anything. Maybe its the road salt. But the fact is theres alot of nontinned wire out there. I want to know what it does and doesn't do. Just my curiosity.
I didn't redo any of my wiring, as all the wiring I replaced was factory original. Some of the wiring had corroded connectors (cutting off the connector exposed the corroded wiring), so it was a no brainier to replace the whole wire run. Figuring the other wires had been there just as long (although the connectors looked good), I opted for replacing everything.


The purpose of the tinned wire is to provide a better material that will last longer than plain copper...that's the only reason. If you would like to save some money do your wiring in plain copper, then periodically cut connectors off and inspect the wiring. I think that's a hassle myself, but you can do it if you want.

I don't know why auto companies don't use tinned wire (probably cost), but not all cars are exposed to as much salt corrosion as boats are.
__________________
JiffyLube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 18:22   #26
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulf View Post
Why do people use adhesive lined heatshrink connectors and tinned wire. If each strand of the wire is totally sealed with tin isn't that a belt on overalls approach??
Because having two things working in your favor is better than having one thing working in your favor in case the other fails.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 18:39   #27
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I agree that heat shrink is going to be best for a butt connection. never said otherwise.

PS - I also have been a pump engineer and sales rep so I must be right!
So you do you feel they don't work on ring terminals, i'm confused? The exposed ring is and will always be subjected to moisture and this is what the PS article dealt with. You can coat the exposed ring end with terminal grease and it works quite well.

Was just on a Caliber 40 LRC last week where a terminal strip was used in the bilge next to the mast base and while not exactly the best place for a t-strip the owner had two redundant bilge pumps in there to try and prevent any water from ever reaching it. The terminals were coated in terminal grease and still looked brand new when the grease was wiped away.

Out of thousands of factory made adhesive crimp terminals I have had only a hand full that failed during shrinking and pulled away from the ring end and I have never seen any signs of corrosion under the adhesive shrink on either rings or butts, does not mean I never will, but with a rather large n (n=lots of boats worked on) they have proven to me to be more reliable over the long haul. I generally don't use push on connectors just rings and butts unless it is for a very un-critical item that occasionally needs to be disconnected and a t-strip absolutely can't be used.

I spent last evening upside down cutting off about 30 open style insulated crimps on a 1997 Mako. Had to clean the wires with DeOxIt & Scotchbrite and then re-terminate about 30% of the panel. Wires were not left long enough by the builder to cut back to clean wire. Also replaced two battery cables that were open style lugs/tinned wire and were badly corroded. This boat has a really dumb battery location that is very damp. The heavy closed ended cast lugs with adhesive heat shrink were perfectly fine but the open style were toast. I know because one of the good terminals had the incorrect hole size so I crimped on a new lug with the correct size hole in the lug for the post it was to go onto. The wire was bone dry and looked as good as new.
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 18:51   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,775
I just finished a re-wire of our boat, 34 year old un-tinned wire.......for the most part all the original was servicable. I replaced with all tinned wire. When you replace old corroded wire you never want to do it again, and the small price of the good stuff is a no-brainer. As an added bonus the cabin lights are brighter since there's essentially no resistanc now through the connectors.
The original untinned wire was usually green at the connector (unsealed) and green to black an average of 5' in from the terminal. This alone should be enough to convince anyone to make all attempts to seal as well as possible.
I would re-wire a boat that was extremly simple and less than 2-3 hours to complete with untinned wire........but how many of those are there?
__________________
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 19:02   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 21
Why do you dislike push on connectors? As long as the insertion force is many many times higher than the weight of the end of wire it wont ever come out unless pulled by someone.
__________________
gulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-08-2010, 19:07   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulf View Post
Why do you dislike push on connectors? As long as the insertion force is many many times higher than the weight of the end of wire it wont ever come out unless pulled by someone.

Push on connectors cannot be sealed at the end as they need to be open to be slipped onto the terminal.Even though this is a heatshrink connector moisture can still make it's way into the wire.
__________________

__________________
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Electrical Crimp Connectors sailorboy1 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 85 22-06-2010 08:20
How Best to Clean Connectors? cabo_sailor Marine Electronics 2 21-06-2010 01:53
Cheap Tinned Wire JusDreaming Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 1 18-06-2010 11:48
Tinned Wire? lorenzo b Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 30 18-06-2009 16:54
Tinned Wire: Charlie Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 56 08-06-2008 19:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.