Heat from Victron Quattro 5000 inverter.

[GRIT]

Thanks CatNewBee.

I'll get a remote switch for it. I hadn't considered the wasted energy, or heat, while idle.

I've read your thread, regards the electrical system on your Lagoon.

You're system inspired me to rid ourselves of Propane aboard. I'm not sure I would have taken that step, had I not read of your success. I've always disliked relying on Propane. Thanks for sharing.


Cheers.
Paul.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by nebster

It's counterproductive to demand cites while proclaiming yourself the arbiter of "relevancy" in a technical discussion amongst knowledgeable people. Just ask nicely if you can't find something yourself.

In my first paragraph, I'm referring to the inverter datasheets.

I'm talking about performance and thermal derating curves in paragraphs two and three. Victron has a whitepaper discussing theirs in some detail, hosted on their site. (You will find that other toroidal inverters share the same characteristic efficiency curves, if you choose to continue to explore further down that rabbit hole.)

The second half of paragraph three and paragraph four are anecdotal observation and opinion. There is no citation, but sometimes these kinds of things are worth more than all the whitepapers and theories in the world.

Please let me know when I have earned my Relevancy Badge.

You get no badge for starters, I have never seen any sales dept write technical specification sheets. I know you're trying to be funny, but plenty will take what you write literally.

On performance and thermal derating curves: which load level and which temperature bring you to which performance and derating percentages? I was rather impressed with their thermal derating curves to the point that I doubt they are correct...

[nebster]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

On performance and thermal derating curves: which load level and which temperature bring you to which performance and derating percentages?

Regarding performance versus temperature, please have a look at the chart in the document. They are trying to keep the components from melting, so they program in a derate.

But the original comments were about waste heat and efficiency, and that is the first response I made. The later charts show the efficiency curve, and it's clear that in many cases the heat produced will be substantially higher than what we would expect at the peak efficiency.

I was rather impressed with their thermal derating curves to the point that I doubt they are correct...

If by that you mean that you think they should derate even more, I could be convinced as well that it seems generous. However, what they don't tell us is where the temperature is measured. I can state for sure that my Quattros derate on charge much faster than the ambient compartment temperature plotted against that graph suggest. But inside the Quattro, I imagine it could be hotter, my airflow might not be optimal, I might have the wrong amount of humidity, and so on.

The practical point, I think, is that if you need the peak performance, (a) don't get your hopes up, (b) test it yourself, and/or (c) overprovision so you leave plenty of headroom.

[dutch-barge]

The quattros/ multi's. have also built in relays, which can be turned on with assistants based on charging, soc, temp. Most likely you will also integrate a Venus of Color CGX for total energy management and they can also assist in turning on an additional fan , just in case your free flow won't suffice

[CharlieJ]

nebster

Hang on, that Victron datasheet is made by the marketing department, and notice it says "Maximum Efficiency."

This "fact" is just not true as there is no marketing department at Victron. Further, Victron is the only inverter or inverter/charger manufacturer, that I am aware of, that has performed the testing and posted the results that clearly shows the derating of their equipment caused by increased ambient temperature.

Finally, both the Multi-Plus and the Quattro cooling fans' operation can be controlled by programming the unit. In other words, if the Victron onboard fan is too noisey, it can be programmed OFF and the cooling can be provided by an external fan that is located where its noise is not irritating.

[dutch-barge]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Thanks CatNewBee.



You're system inspired me to rid ourselves of Propane aboard. I'm not sure I would have taken that step, had I not read of your success. I've always disliked relying on Propane. Thanks for sharing.


Cheers.
Paul.

yes we got rid of propane on board...just an induction stove.... and I have two 3000 VA multis parallel works like a charm

[GRIT]

Thanks Dutch-barge, and CharlieJ for your contributions.

I didn't know about the programmable fan, that'll be useful in conjunction with the programmable switches. As CharlieJ mentioned, it could be useful to have a remote fan.

Thanks to you both.
Paul.

[dutch-barge]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Thanks Dutch-barge, and CharlieJ for your contributions.

I didn't know about the programmable fan, that'll be useful in conjunction with the programmable switches. As CharlieJ mentioned, it could be useful to have a remote fan.

Thanks to you both.
Paul.

Yes I have the one relay connected to a larger fan in the battery comp when it is charging or when it goes in High energy mode.

There is also an assistent which can turn the fan off in the night if it bothers you.

[GRIT]

Ok, how can I stay ABYC compliant with a Quattro 5000 inverter?

I believe ABYC says you can use two conductors to a load, as long as a single conductor can handle said load, on it's own.

Did I misread that? 4/0 gauge wire is ABYC rated at 455 amps, and the Quattro 5000 asks for a 750 amp fuse.

I'd like to keep my insurance company happy, so can someone explain this part to me?

Thanks.
Paul.

[GRIT]

I think I just answered my own question.

I guess I'd use a 350A-400A fuse on each 4/0 wire, in lieu of one 750 amp fuse.

Cheers.
Paul.

[dutch-barge]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Ok, how can I stay ABYC compliant with a Quattro 5000 inverter?

I believe ABYC says you can use two conductors to a load, as long as a single conductor can handle said load, on it's own.

Did I misread that? 4/0 gauge wire is ABYC rated at 455 amps, and the Quattro 5000 asks for a 750 amp fuse.

I'd like to keep my insurance company happy, so can someone explain this part to me?

Thanks.
Paul.

I am a bit confused now...you are going to use a 12 V battery bank for a 5000KV quattro? which means a 400 amp draw at full power. What kind of batteries will you use ? if it is not Li then it will be a BIG one to sustain 400 amps.

I have only used 24/5000 quattro's (110V ) and then the current is 200 amps.
with 200 amps you take them from 2 equal banks each delivering 100 which is manageable


Sp please let me know what voltage your system is .

[CatNewBee]

Hi there,

We use a Victron Quattro 12/5000/220-100/100 230V
It is a

12V unit on the battery side,
5000VA output (4kW continuous load),
220A charge current
100/100A transfer switch (2 line-in / 2 outputs)
230V (output voltage, frequency configurable)

We use 4x1000Ah LiFeYPO4 cells for a 12V 1000Ah bank

Current draw can be continuous up to 400A, short time 600A on inductive loads starting up. With a FLA bank I would recommend at least a capacity of 800Ah if not used heavily (up to 0.5C discharge current, 400Ah usable capacity), to have the same smooth operation as with a LFP bank like mine you would need about 2000Ah in FLA. In theory a 400Ah LFP would be the minimum requirement to run the inverter (1C continuous discharge)

We use a pair of 95mm² wires per pole approximately 1.2m long (4ft), 2x 400A fuses on the positive wires as specified by the manufacturer, also a BlueSea ML-RBS 500A bi-stable solenoid as switch/breaker, it can be operated electrically and manually.

[nebster]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

nebster


This "fact" is just not true as there is no marketing department at Victron. Further, Victron is the only inverter or inverter/charger manufacturer, that I am aware of, that has performed the testing and posted the results that clearly shows the derating of their equipment caused by increased ambient temperature.

Don't take it so literally: there doesn't have to be a "marketing department" for a datasheet for a product to only put its best foot forward. (Next you'll be telling me that Victron "doesn't have a foot.")

Datasheets are notoriously under-representative of the information needed to make design decisions. This is one case: peak efficiency does not equal nominal efficiency, and the difference could be a substantial amount of additional heat.

Finally, both the Multi-Plus and the Quattro cooling fans' operation can be controlled by programming the unit. In other words, if the Victron onboard fan is too noisey, it can be programmed OFF and the cooling can be provided by an external fan that is located where its noise is not irritating.

That's a great point, but it doesn't detract from the fact that my units will quickly thermally de-rate. I wish I had engineered a wind tunnel around my units so that I could add custom forced-air to try to keep mine cooler, but I did not know that I would see the degree of de-rate I experience at 80F ambient.

The next unit off the line might perform much better than mine, or mine could be representative. I have no way to know.

None of the above invalidates what I wrote before.

[GRIT]

Duch-Barge. We are using CALB cells, at 12v and 720 ah. We would have preferred to get Winston Cells (800 ah), but had troubles finding a reliable supplier in North America. CALB cells were available, in stock, in California.



This is not the final installation, I just put them in, and hooked them up yesterday. Some of the wiring is temporary, and will have to be re-routed, due to the recent installation of the battery box. And I'll have to repaint the areas I sanded to glass the box in, finish the top edge, and install the lid.

Thanks CatNewBee, for the real-world amp numbers. I'll also be using 400A fuses on each supply wire (120mm2). A little larger than needed, but I have it in stock.

Cheers.
Paul.

[Fuss]

I see there is some comments on switching off the internal fan.

I can't remember this but if it exists, I would not recommend switching this off as you would never know if this contributed to a failure in the future.

I have an external fan as well (it's a big one) but it does not seem to make any performance improvements, the device seems to have a similar temperature, so I am not going to use it in the future.