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Old 29-08-2011, 15:11   #16
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

Westerbleak [sic] are not my favorite people. When Goodyear, Gates, Firestone, all the top rubber companies say that painting their hoses will cause premature failure, and someone like WB paints them all nice shiny red every time...I side with the engineers.

WB also doesn't actually make anything, they shop for the cheapest possible bidder, then assemble things, i.e. an engine block from one source, alternator from another...which can work but presents new opportunities for issues.

But pretty much any diesel engine should run 5-10,000 hours between overhauls, and once overhauled run that long again with no issues. As long as they stay cool and lubricated, they will do the hours. (Ignoring the "disposable" stuff from China.<G>)

You're right, sometimes diesel fuel is the cheapest way to store power!
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Old 29-08-2011, 15:27   #17
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamante View Post
You certainly can pay $40K for the batteries, depending on where you buy them, but there are much cheaper sources. Whenever I am pricing a lithium battery system, I budget $400 per KWhr. So with your prospective 20 KWhr system, I would expect to pay under $10K for the whole bank, including an optional BMS.

But I am curious where you are getting the current draw data for the fridges. Is it from a spec sheet, name plate, or actually measured with a clamp-on ammeter?
I guess it does beg a lot of questions, so here is the rest of the story.

When I made the changes last year and put in the 2 units mentioned here, it was to replace 5 different units that were on the boat, with 5 different compressors to run etc...

Main deck galley had a 14 cf, 120v ref/freezer. Salon had a wine fridge, upper deck had a small refrigerator 1 cf and an ice maker and a 3cf beer fridge. All of which combined had a draw of 32 amps, all measured by an electrician with clamp on meters.

The current 2 units draw 14 amps combined and have replaced all 5 previous units and provide much more space. This is also assuming a 100% duty cycle.

Obviously, with these 5 units I had to run my genny all the time and when I went to the new energy efficient units, I thought I could save the genny hours by running on batteries which of course only happens for a few hours.

Since I want to keep the existing refrigeration and I don't want to spend more than the cost of a new generator for batteries. It seems I just have to accept that I have to run my generator while cruising and my current lead/acid bank is quite adequate and the problem is solved.
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Old 29-08-2011, 15:55   #18
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaySea Lady View Post
The current 2 units draw 14 amps combined...
Again, is this actually measured with a clamp-on? If so, the power draw is outlandishly large. Can you post the make and model of the SS fridge? I can't quite make it out in the photo.

Quote:
This is also assuming a 100% duty cycle.
So you actually are getting a 100% duty cycle? Wow! Unless you run these with the doors open all the time, I am having a difficult time understanding it.

In any case, if I were in that situation I'd seriously consider beefing up my battery bank, even to the tune of $10K, in lieu of keeping the genny running. It wouldn't be a matter of money but rather of style and convenience. But we all make our choices...
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Old 29-08-2011, 16:04   #19
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

It sounds like you are using nameplate values for loads and assuming 100% duty cycle. Try to find out what realworld consumption is, my guess is you will be making 8-12hr just fine.

The costs I had for lithium are for Mastervolt. Ordering cells in bulk direct from China will get you a much better price, but will not get you a local distributor or much of a warranty. If I were going to go Lithium I would buy Chinese and expect some of the cells to be bad straight out of the box, I'd still be a lot of money ahead.

Another option is to add a significant amount of solar panels. On a power boat you aren't going to have as much problem with shading as a sailboat. The objective of the solar is not to maintain the batteries, but to extend the time between needing to run the genset.

A combination better capacity with the slimline batteries you mentioned in an earlier post, better than expected real-world comsumption and solar panels may get you to the point where you only need to charge once a day when it is sunny.

One thing to check that greatly affects fridge performance, is the amount of ventilation for the hot-side coils.
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Old 29-08-2011, 17:25   #20
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

This is the unit I have at 220v. It draws in real life 8 amps when running. The amp draw's Raysea is quoting are completely possible. I had looked at installing a 12v system last year but really, I need to run the generator anyway so the bigger condenser made sense. In order to keep temp's I need to run for 2.5 hours minimum in the morning and again at night.

BG 2000 Specifications and Operating Characteristics

115-volt 50/60 hz 230-volt 50/60 hz
Horsepower 1 HP 1HP
Refrigerant 404-a 404-a
Oil Polyol ester oil Polyol ester oil
Locked rotor amps 76.7 45
Current draw with pump 26.8 amps (110v) 14.10 amps (220v)
Electrical breaker 30 amp 15 amp double
pole
Maximum refrigerant charge 24 oz 24 oz
Manual reset high pressure cut-out 325 PSIG 325 PSIG
March pump LC-3 LC-3
Integral low voltage thermostat circuit 24-volt AC 24-volt AC
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Old 29-08-2011, 17:34   #21
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

This is the commercial stainless unit.
EVEREST MFG

This is the galley unit.
Summit: FFAR10x 10.1 cu. ft. Counter-Depth All-Refrigerator with Internal Fans, Interior Light, Adjustable Wire Shelves and Door Storage

You are correct, the 14 amps is from the combined nameplates, the 100 % cycle is made up on my part and not an actual which is probably in the 60% range. (another assumption on my part)

The 32 amps from the prior 5 units was done by an electrician with the clamp on meters.

When I run on batteries, after about 4 hours of running they are down to the 11.8 volt range, which, from what I understand is close to my 50% mark.
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Old 29-08-2011, 21:36   #22
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Two generators?

Given that 12V refrigeration is unacceptable, and the current draw makes batteries impractical why not install a small diesel generator sized to start up and run the refrigerators.

With good sound insulation you'd hardly know its there.

Otherwise I'm good with all of the previous suggestions...
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Old 30-08-2011, 02:17   #23
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaySea Lady View Post
This is the commercial stainless unit.
EVEREST MFG

This is the galley unit.
Summit: FFAR10x 10.1 cu. ft. Counter-Depth All-Refrigerator with Internal Fans, Interior Light, Adjustable Wire Shelves and Door Storage

You are correct, the 14 amps is from the combined nameplates, the 100 % cycle is made up on my part and not an actual which is probably in the 60% range. (another assumption on my part)

The 32 amps from the prior 5 units was done by an electrician with the clamp on meters.

When I run on batteries, after about 4 hours of running they are down to the 11.8 volt range, which, from what I understand is close to my 50% mark.
Rather than watch the voltage, you should have a battery monitor that can count the Ah's used and give you the SOC as a percentage. Becuase of the high load and the voltage-sagging tendency of LA batts, just looking at the voltage alone can be misleading. Counting amps will give you a better idea of what you're actually using.

Once you know how many Ah's you're actually using, it will be easier to properly size the lithium option and see what you'd actually need. Maybe you don't need a $40k system (and not necessarily a Mastervolt, anyway).
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Old 30-08-2011, 06:13   #24
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

RaySea,

Why do you have to go with exotic (expensive) batteries? Why not just add 5-6 more 8D lead/acid batteries to double your capacity and get the overnight run time? Haven't purchased any 8Ds but can't imagine they would cost more than $2000-$3000 for the lot and should last you several years.

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Old 30-08-2011, 06:17   #25
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

If the enormous weight, and space isn't a issue; and you don't mind replacing them every few years...this is true.

Be sure to have a good/smart charging system (with LA OR LI).
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Old 30-08-2011, 06:21   #26
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Re: Two generators?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
Given that 12V refrigeration is unacceptable, and the current draw makes batteries impractical why not install a small diesel generator sized to start up and run the refrigerators.

With good sound insulation you'd hardly know its there.

Otherwise I'm good with all of the previous suggestions...
I think this may be the best solution. Not only does it address your main problem but now you will have a back up in case the main generator goes down. With all the refer/freezer capacity you have I'm guessing you carry a lot of groceries with you and would have quite a mess if you lost power.
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Old 30-08-2011, 07:13   #27
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

How old are those batteries? if you are using less than the 150 AH on the manufacturers plates and the batteries are still down after 4 hours are the batteries getting old, so reduced capacity.

Final thought, were is all the heat going that is coming out of the fridge and freezer? is it being trapped behind cabinets and under work surfaces? how about a small engine room type blower to extract hot air away from the area so the cooling systems have a chance to work properly?

I hate to say this but if we use more than 30 amp hours in a whole day I start switching things off.


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Old 30-08-2011, 08:37   #28
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

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Since I want to keep the existing refrigeration and I don't want to spend more than the cost of a new generator for batteries. It seems I just have to accept that I have to run my generator while cruising and my current lead/acid bank is quite adequate and the problem is solved.
It will be a lot cheaper to change your refrigeration than it will be to build an electrical system designed to support those kind of loads. You will need a giant battery bank, giant charging capacity, and probably a bigger generator to run the giant chargers. To get any kind of reasonable run time with those kind of loads.

Refrigeration is often the biggest electrical consumer on board. So good marine refrigeration is designed to use minimum amounts of power -- with much better insulation than you will find in home units, and more efficient cooling process using sea water instead of air.

They also run directly off DC power instead of needing to have DC power inverted -- which wastes even more power.

The power draw you are talking about is really hard to support on battery power. It's more like an air conditioning load. Unless you're happy running the genset all the time, you need proper marine refrigeration, instead of home refrigeration, and perhaps a little less of it.

A six-week cruise is 1008 hours on your genset, if you run it continuously. That's a lot of diesel, a lot of oil changes, and a lot of amortization. Remember gensets break every certain number of hours, too. I can't see how it's worth it just to have home-style refrigeration, but of course, it's your boat, and not mine.

My boat is a 54 footer which sleeps seven. I have a large front-loading Isotherm marine refrigerator (total capacity similar to what I have at home, because it's much deeper), and a very deep separate freezer. The maximum power consumption of each of the two Danfoss compressors is about 3 amps at 24 volts, so 6 amps for both of them together. The duty cycle is very short because of the high efficiency of the self-pumping sea water heat exchangers, and because of the high efficiency of the insulation of the boxes.

You could double that on your boat to please your refrigeration-hungry Admiral, and still draw only 12 amps at 24 volts when all four compressors (24 amps at 12 volts) are going. You could run something like that for 24 hours on a 30% - 50% duty cycle and hardly dent a 1200 amp/hour battery bank.
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Old 30-08-2011, 09:47   #29
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

Not to mention the fuel cost for refrigeration of that 6 week cruise is something on the order of $4,000? If one is taking much shorter trips, makes one wonder if all the refrigeration capacity is being used?

Have to admit, we stock our freezer pretty much when we are going to be aboard. My wife does not like to store stuff in the freezer. This cuts our energy consumption by more than half. (Freezer is set down to 20 degrees, that also lightens the consumption. But, it means you don't want to store frozen goods in it for more than about 3 weeks.) We take the stuff in the freezer home with us when we are off the boat.
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Old 30-08-2011, 20:56   #30
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Re: Have to Upgrade My Battery Bank - Acid or Lithium ?

Thanks for all the great suggestions.

At this point, I am looking at using my two engine alternators that are each 130 amp units and installing Sterling Regulator/chargers to keep my batteries charged up while I am running.

As for the 1008 hours for 5 - 6 weeks, we are only cruising 5 to 6 hours a day and are at a marina connected to shore power the rest of the time. So, it is a total of 210 hours, and the cost of that is a good reason why I would want to avoid using it if I can.

Ventilation is good, the upper deck unit is essentially outside and has plenty of air space around it, the galley unit has ventilation behind it.

Lithium batteries are out of the question due to costs. Cheaper to replace the generator.

Adding more 8D batteries, not an option due to space limitations.

Adding another generator, not an option due to space limitations.

My current Bank is 2 years old. Load testing by my electrician shows them to be good.
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