Group purchase of 8D 300ah Lithium batteries

[GRIT]

I've just called Voltronix, since I read in another thread that Maine Sail was happy with dealing with them.

They now sell Winston branded batteries, and no longer have their own brand batteries made by Winston.

I'm pricing 8, 400ah, cells. If anyone is interested in knowing the price, I'd be glad to share.

I was originally going to buy from GWL Power. The cost of shipping, from Prague, makes it worth my while to do some more searching for a local distributor. I hope Carlos, at Voltronix, can give me good pricing.

I apologize, again, for the thread drift. But this thread may well be irretrievable, regards 8-D batteries.

Cheers.
Paul.

[john61ct]

I did not think "arranging your own shipping" from a European retail source would be too straightforward, but if others have ideas would love to be proven wrong.

And again, no idea where that 8D size idea came from, never heard of prismatics sold in BCI group sizes. If you really need those sizes maybe best to stick to lead.

I really hope Voltronix will be a reliable supplier of quality cell with integrity and decent service mentality.

I have no expectation that they will or can compete on price with small eBay style sellers.

I figure USD $1.70-2.50 per cell-Ah delivered would be a decent ballpark,

so $650 to a grand per 100Ah @12V,

with a small price drop and lower delivery overheads on pallet sized orders.

The real key will be when they get volume throughput up high enough to allow batch-matching by capacity or resistance, reducing us receiving banks hard to keep balanced.

That, and quality / longevity, local handling of warranty returns, are well worth paying more for.

Please do not B&M about "high pricing" if these issues are important to you, decent margins are required to get some semblance of distribution channels going in the US.

Everything going through Amazon "market" or eBay is just a race to the bottom.

Originally Posted by GRIT

I'm pricing 8, 400ah, cells. If anyone is interested in knowing the price, I'd be glad to share

Yes, of course, please do.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I did not think "arranging your own shipping" from a European retail source would be too straightforward, but if others have ideas would love to be proven wrong.

And again, no idea where that 8D size idea came from, never heard of prismatics sold in BCI group sizes. If you really need those sizes maybe best to stick to lead.

I really hope Voltronix will be a reliable supplier of quality cell with integrity and decent service mentality.

I have no expectation that they will or can compete on price with small eBay style sellers.

I figure USD $1.70-2.50 per cell-Ah delivered would be a decent ballpark,

so $650 to a grand per 100Ah @12V,

with a small price drop and lower delivery overheads on pallet sized orders.

The real key will be when they get volume throughput up high enough to allow batch-matching by capacity or resistance, reducing us receiving banks hard to keep balanced.

That, and quality / longevity, local handling of warranty returns, are well worth paying more for.

Please do not B&M about "high pricing" if these issues are important to you, decent margins are required to get some semblance of distribution channels going in the US.

Everything going through Amazon "market" or eBay is just a race to the bottom.

Yes, of course, please do.

You can let pick them up by FedEx freight or DHL.

[john61ct]

Do you mean ordering for stateside delivery from Europe?

If it were that easy, wouldn't the vendors there just make it an option when ordering from them?

Hazmat "class 9" etc

Originally Posted by Montanan

UPS, Fed Ex, will require special review and contracts because they have lost planes, trucks and personnel due to lithium battery fires.



I believe Fed Ex will no longer accept PI 965 Section II batteries.



Been there done that with thousands of moderate powered lithium batteries, mostly via chartered cargo flights but also container load sea transport.



This is not a subject for amateurs.



The fines for improper shipment are onerous.

...
the label on each of our packages which specifically states: Forbidden for transport on board plane or vessel
...
the distributor would be required to have personnel take classes to become certified in handling and shipping lithium batteries just as key persons of our company's personnel required training to handle and ship the products and both Fed Ex and UPS inspected our products, packaging and procedures and training before agreeing to take consignment of our batteries.

[Montanan]

Fed Ex will not accept lithium batteries that are greater than 100 Wh and of a net quantity of more than 35kg without an approval document from the origin Civil Aviation Authority authorizing the shipment. The shipper must contact the Civil Aviation Authority in their local jurisdiction to obtain this approval.

[Gmcgyvr]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I've just called Voltronix, since I read in another thread that Maine Sail was happy with dealing with them.

They now sell Winston branded batteries, and no longer have their own brand batteries made by Winston.

I'm pricing 8, 400ah, cells. If anyone is interested in knowing the price, I'd be glad to share.

I was originally going to buy from GWL Power. The cost of shipping, from Prague, makes it worth my while to do some more searching for a local distributor. I hope Carlos, at Voltronix, can give me good pricing.

I apologize, again, for the thread drift. But this thread may well be irretrievable, regards 8-D batteries.

Cheers.
Paul.

Hi Paul,
I need some T’Sky/Winston modules.
Not sure if they sell 700ah. LifePo4 with Yttrium.
I have 36 in my electric powered catamaran.
Currently in Mexico; but leaving boat here and heading home to Vancouver
In the spring.
If they can supply 4 x 700ah. 3.2v Modules and you are willing to order;
please let me know. Can ship to Vancouver.
Cheers
Graham

F41jazz@gmail.com

[mfortinberry]

Fascinating where this conversation went.

Clear that this is more logistically challenging than we would like - and the original idea was somewhat of a dream anyway

I can tell this for sure - there is major demand for marine lithium battery options that are cost effective. Imagine 300ah for $800... 30% weight savings, longer life, deeper discharge, faster charging, etc. we all know the possibility...

remember when we used to pay huge money for a 50mb zip storage disk..... now 1 terabyte is essentially free..... technology will keep progressing and we are getting closer to the point where electrical storage capacity will be as easy.

I can appreciate this is “not for amateurs”. But hope it will be plug and play soon.

The upsides are significant and if someone works out the logistics of getting quality cost effective batteries to the US in volume - the market is clearly waiting.

Anyone want to start a battery import business to solve all this....

Maybe that is a new thread :-)

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by mfortinberry

Fascinating where this conversation went.

Clear that this is more logistically challenging than we would like - and the original idea was somewhat of a dream anyway

I can tell this for sure - there is major demand for marine lithium battery options that are cost effective. Imagine 300ah for $800... 30% weight savings, longer life, deeper discharge, faster charging, etc. we all know the possibility...

remember when we used to pay huge money for a 50mb zip storage disk..... now 1 terabyte is essentially free..... technology will keep progressing and we are getting closer to the point where electrical storage capacity will be as easy.

I can appreciate this is “not for amateurs”. But hope it will be plug and play soon.

The upsides are significant and if someone works out the logistics of getting quality cost effective batteries to the US in volume - the market is clearly waiting.

Anyone want to start a battery import business to solve all this....

Maybe that is a new thread :-)

There is nothing that I can discern that would be unique about a "marine" specific application as it applies to lithium batteries. What works for stationary or eMobility applications would work for boats albeit the appropriate voltage and ampere ratings for the load.

The cost of lithium cells and complete batteries and requisite ancillary systems keeps dropping substantially year over year. It is expected that the cost of electric vehicles will be comparable or less than ICE powered vehicles by the 2025. Presently large battery costs produced in volume are around $180 or less per kWh and we expect the OEM industry to achieve sub $100 kWh by 2025. The costs have dropped by about 80% since 2010. Note there is a big difference between OEM cost and individual unit purchase pricing. BIG difference. Just as there is a big difference between cell cost and battery pack cost.

Of keen issue is that the load requirements of a vessel are modest and the volume demand for electric storage systems specific to boats is trivial by any standard of industry. Distributive power systems for homes is much larger scale of power required and number of units and eVehicles are nearing their tipping point.

If you include the adjective Marine to anything one is looking at a doubling or tripling of price at least.

Power density is important aboard ship because of limited space within the hull and the desire to not displace water to float. Now if someone could just make a monohull keel that was also a lead acid battery then there would be ample house bank capacities. Especially a bipolar lead acid battery architecture which BLAB provides for a 40% reduction of weight per kWh and the potential for far faster charging and discharging capacity than traditional prismatic lead acid construction.

[GRIT]

Gmcgyvr.

I was interested in a group buy, if buying from Prague, as shipping is a bit onerous. We could all save some money if I organize a container, or some other bulk shipping method.

Voltronix is in California, so I don't see a benefit to combining purchases, for separate deliveries, on separate coasts.

If they don't come through, then I'll contact GWL Power and get things rolling. Keep an eye on this thread, http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2824405 for updates.

Thanks for your interest, and good luck.

I have not yet heard back from Carlos. I have called today, and left a message. He did say he'd get back to me "soon". I don't know what that means in California, but around here, if someone says "soon" in the morning, you can expect action by that afternoon.

We'll see.

I will no longer post on this thread, unless it's in regards to the OP's subject matter. I've started another thread, for those interested in purchasing Winston cells.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2824405

Cheers.
Paul.

[john61ct]

Prices will not drop, high demand will always outpace the supply.

Technology changes will bring the next chemistry, not reduce the pricing.

> Anyone want to start a battery import business to solve all this

Very risky, high capital demands, market full of scammers,

shipping carriers can change their terms,

tariffs subject to the whims of dictators, on both sides

And especially unrealistic expectations like

> Imagine 300ah for $800

Just means smothered in the cradle,

that is if for some reason you meant at 4S / 12V

Outside the US low-end market that isn't even realistic for a quality lead bank designed for deep cycling.

In fact IMO that cheap pricing is a major reason the LFP market is so much slower to develop here.

[bouncycastle]

Great idea but full of risks. Like getting a 20foot container filled with communist toilet paper. I been in shipping on the EU side and seen that happen. To reduce risks you need to locate a good China based agent and good shipping insurance and a bucket load of other safe guards to ensure you have successful shipment. Also factor in batteries like these are probably classed as HAZmAT. That often doubles shipping costs and USA import costs can orbital with local regulations for HAZMAT storage and transport around and out of the landing port. If your shipment comes in costing less than 2000 a unit or better than 1500 a unit would be the best case . The major importers of these materials if they charge 3000 strongly indicates they pay closer to 2000 a unit and they are often doing this every day where they can expect 6some shipments to go south with unexpected extra costs. The rules for shipping lithium batteries by air from the USA are so horificly full of risks to get 5 figure fines and jail time if you make minor mistakes in paper work or packaging. So don't think to tranship outside the USA by air.Hope your project works but bear in mind if you try to recharge most lithium type cells at below zero Celcuis or ,32 F you can wreck them . So boats in Florida or south California don't have a big risk with lithium but most USA states run risks to use the lithium at cold temperatures

[OceanPlanet]

Prices are going down soon on these very impressive (high energy density, light, rugged, conveniently sized) GTX12V285A-F2509 (285Ah x 12.8V) and GTX25V570A-F2509 (570Ah x 25.6V).... They do require the external advanced BMS, which is the bombproof UL listed Ver.8 with CAN, Bluetooth, remote lighted power button, etc...

Seems like a lot less hassle...;-)

[KTP]

The Trojan Trilliums (waterproof, canbus, real disconnect, high/low/temp protections) are less than $650 a kwh in quantity. No BMS needed.

You also don't have to wait by the dock for a boat from China to get them.

[OceanPlanet]

Yes, the TT's are interesting, seem better thought out than most other "drop-in" Li. They DO have a BMS, being internal in each battery. If you are ok with single-channel (common load & charge circuit), more weight, more connections, etc. For smaller applications these types of are certainly an option, along with similar products like the 125Ah Lithionics: file:///D:/Downloads/12V125A-G31-5CND-LRB-R1.pdf

Different horses, different courses...

[KTP]

Some of the more weight likely comes from the waterproof case and safety circuitry on the TTs.

What I like in theory about them is that with each battery monitoring itself and capable of disconnecting itself from a string, you have some protection against a total bank failure (many $$$).

Say you have 16 Trojan Trilliums wired 4s4p for a 48V 368AH system (about 18kWh)

If a single Trillium were to fail, it would take itself out of the loop with the internal disconnect, leaving you with 4s3p. Each Trillium monitors it's own charging parameters and will disconnect itself if they fall outside of acceptable range before damage is done to the battery cells. In the event that somehow a string gets shorted, the other Trilliums in that string will disconnect because of their overcurrent protection, thus saving the whole bank.

I mean there is so much to like here that I think we should do a group purchase of like 500 of these for $500 each or something.