Group purchase of 8D 300ah Lithium batteries

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Red Sky

Lithium batteries from China? Not a chance. The value of my boat compared to the cost of the batteries, even if they cost three times that here in the US, isn’t something I take a chance on. I have enough in my head while I’m onboard. I don’t need to lay awake in my berth or on night watch 500 miles off shore and worry about a battery catching fire. Not worth my wife’s or my safety.

BTW, Anyone know if your insurance allows them or not?

I take it you will be throwing away your mobile phone,laptop etc as well ??

[andreas.mehlin]

Originally Posted by kryg

Don’t buy Chinese’s manufactured Lithium batteries –

I’m installing lithium Batteries, over 6 months I have been studying the processes of manufacture from China. To save your future grief, may I suggest you forget buying Chinese lithium batteries as the cells are small sized and soldered together if one fails the battery is not repairable - I suggest you research cell suppliers in the US then find out who is using them to build lithium batteries there.


Here in Australia, there is only one company that makes lithium batteries and BMS to order for your needs, they use the larger US made cells bolted together and not soldered like the ones made in China if one fails the battery can’t be repaired. Whereas with the larger bolted cells, the failed cell, battery can be serviced and repaired. As an example is there link in Australia for the above advice of your reference.
www.lithbattoz.com.au www.offgridlithiumpower.com

Less Grief reliable power makes for enjoyable on the water experiences.

Kryg Skoiern IV.

Thera are many good Chinese manufacture when it comes to lithium batteries.
But care should of course be taken.

First of all....It's a good idea to separate batteries and individual cells. A lot of people are buying 3.2v Lifepo4. or 2.3V LTO to make there own battery. Either a 12v or maybe a 48v. So in that case, choose good cells like Winston, CALB, GBS.. for Lifepo4....or Yinlong for LTO

[alansmith]

I understand safety concerns. Who wouldn’t? For the China bashers... just so you know... there are multiple forum members that have large lithium banks and crossing oceans. No one burned up yet afik.

I will seriously think about lithium Banks for my trimaran. You have to have all your electron ducks lined up and controlled correctly. Over and under charging scenarios seem to be the main culprits that cause serious problems.

I remember as a kid in the mid 50’s all of the bashing that Japanese products took. I do believe China also has one of the largest lithium deposits in the world.

[Red Sky]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

I take it you will be throwing away your mobile phone,laptop etc as well ??

Of course not...my phone or laptop isn’t 400-500 amps of potentially destructive energy. They were both also engineered in the USA and backed up by an American company. If I have a problem, I’m talking to someone in Cupertino, not Beijing, big difference.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Red Sky

Of course not...my phone or laptop isn’t 400-500 amps of potentially destructive energy. They were both also engineered in the USA and backed up by an American company. If I have a problem, I’m talking to someone in Cupertino, not Beijing, big difference.

Your missing the point, you belittle Chinese manufacturing yet happy to have those items , made in China but they are alright because an American company outsourced their manufacturing.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Red Sky

Lithium batteries from China? Not a chance. The value of my boat compared to the cost of the batteries, even if they cost three times that here in the US, isn’t something I take a chance on. I have enough in my head while I’m onboard. I don’t need to lay awake in my berth or on night watch 500 miles off shore and worry about a battery catching fire. Not worth my wife’s or my safety.

BTW, Anyone know if your insurance allows them or not?

You're thinking of other lithium chemistries, not LiFePO4.

And yes, none actually made outside China afaik.

Maybe "assembled" but poorer quality I'd bet.

[Red Sky]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Your missing the point, you belittle Chinese manufacturing yet happy to have those items , made in China but they are alright because an American company outsourced their manufacturing.

I’m not belittling China at all, I just prefer a higher quality of engineering. I understand the cells are all manufactured in China, but if you think the Chinese level of engineering is of comparable quality, you’re wrong. If you’re ok with batteries designed, engineered, and manufactured there, great.

[Red Sky]

Originally Posted by john61ct

You're thinking of other lithium chemistries, not LiFePO4.

And yes, none actually made outside China afaik.

Maybe "assembled" but poorer quality I'd bet.

No, I’m thinking LiFePO4.

Substandard BMS, cells soldered, no case reinforcement, etc. I want something designed, engineered, and manufactured to standards I’m comfortable with. Dealing with a company that has no language barriers is a plus also. I have enough trouble trying to communicate technical issues in Spanish while in Mexico, and I have a pretty good grasp of that language.

My boat, my choice.

[john61ct]

All that's fine, I recommended Bruce @ OceanPlanet for engineereed systems by Victron, or Lithionics which he helped design.

but claiming any fire hazard greater than lead batts or the fuels most of us carry

is not warranted by the facts.

Nor is buying a packaged proprietary system for that reason alone IMO.

Other LI chemistries, then I agree.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I don't believe "Made in China" is synonymous with "junk". Krikey, they sent a Chinese made space ship to the "dark side" of the moon.

To the best of my knowledge: The vast majority of lithium batteries, and just about everything else, is made in China.

I grant you, it's the wild west there; in regards to scams, fakes, and intellectual property theft. But many of the fakes, are copies of originals, that were themselves, Chinese made products.

Let's face it. China, is a manufacturing, and financial, powerhouse. And they're not far behind in science either.

Cheers.
Paul.

There is a reason why companies like Apple choose to make their products there and it's only partially because of price. The Chinese learn very fast and there is a wide range of quality manufacturing services from which you can choose.... the trick is knowing which one to partner with.

So while I believe that a group buy from lithium from China is a good idea, I don't see it as being viable and safe without some significant legwork before hand in order to find the best manufacturer and source... and then you are not getting those batteries at such a bargain.

[john61ct]

The known-good manufacturers are known.

Yes they cost more FOB but with a conex load shipping does not add that much.

The challenge is QA sorting and matching lots by capacity / resistance, I doubt if it could be arranged to be done over there.

Say 40% are A level (relative to the batch delivered anyway, I bet Chinese mil/gov buyers get the cream) and only 10% are unacceptable.

I doubt a volunteer co-op could handle the logistics, takes a single entity owner to make the hard decisions and coordinate logistics, and in Amerika with so much money at risk, can't imagine it not requiring a profit motive.

Certainly would be earned.

Actually sending a small fraction back for warranty return is IMO just not practical unless an ongoing enterprise.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by mfortinberry

8D 300ah lithium ion batteries

https://www.gsl-energy.com is the company I found, but there are many others too.

A 300Ah LFP battery with a max charge rate of 50A is a lower charge acceptance, 0.17C, than a deep cycle flooded lead acid. If you charge at their "standard" 20A charge current, where they prefer you to be charging, you are looking at a charge rate of under 0.07C. A charge rate of 0.07C is lower than the "slow" charge rate of 0.1C for flooded deep cycle batteries.

The reason for this is because the manufacturer is using inexpensive mosfet BMS switches instead of real high current handling contactors. It is also because the BMS systems in these batteries cannot "shunt" a lot of balancing power so by keeping charge current low it means even poor quality non-well matched LFP cells can be used and at 20A charge current the BMS system may keep up with the balancing.

If you don't understand the technology, nuances, the LFP industry or the many ways you can be cheated out of your money, with LFP, please be careful out there.

[Red Sky]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

If you don't understand the technology, nuances, the LFP industry or the many ways you can be cheated out of your money, with LFP, please be careful out there.

++++1 Exactly

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by john61ct

anyone know how that is done?

Lithium cells [and batteries] are hazardous goods for transport regulations.
Class 9 rules apply.

Obtain the services of trained and certified specialists as to product safety testing / certification, packaging, labeling and proper shipper's declaration.

Many shipping companies will avoid handling lithium. UPS, Fed Ex, will require special review and contracts because they have lost planes, trucks and personnel due to lithium battery fires.

I believe Fed Ex will no longer accept PI 965 Section II batteries.

Been there done that with thousands of moderate powered lithium batteries, mostly via chartered cargo flights but also container load sea transport.

This is not a subject for amateurs.

The fines for improper shipment are onerous.

Note there are a lot of junk cells and batteries on the market and truly few high quality manufacturers.

For large power batteries such as vessel house banks, prismatic are the appropriate architecture, much simpler than coddling up vast number of small amperage cells in parallel.

The company that I have cofounded designs and manufactures motors and gennys for electric vehicles and purchases lithium batteries for use in its outdoor power products division [lawn, garden and forestry tools]. Our company is largely funded by a consortium whose lead investor is the founder and primary owner of the world's largest manufacturer of lithium batteries.

I recall one of distributors calling me to ask for guidance regarding shipment of an order of our products to a retailer located on Martha's Vineyard which shipment was to be aboard a vessel [a ferry, not a cargo only vessel]. I told him to read the label on each of our packages which specifically states: Forbidden for transport on board plane or vessel. His son was listening in to our telephone conversation, the son was an officer in the USCG. The son was glad to hear my advice to the distributor to just not sell the products to any retailers on islands so as to avoid the maritime transport and to stick to just distributing to dealers that can be serviced by ground transport, otherwise the distributor would be required to have personnel take classes to become certified in handling and shipping lithium batteries just as key persons of our company's personnel required training to handle and ship the products and both Fed Ex and UPS inspected our products, packaging and procedures and training before agreeing to take consignment of our batteries.

Recently some of our prototype and old batteries were improperly disposed of. When they got to the landfill the bulldozers end up crushing the batteries and a few caught fire and the landfill had to push the burning trash aside to control the fire. To say they were less than pleased with our trash handling would be an understatement. It seems the batteries were not fully discharged before disposal. Each of the batteries is labelled "Do not crush or incinerate" for just such purpose. Of issue is that the battery management system will turn off the discharging of the batteries when the proscribed voltage is reached, but the BMS low voltage limit does not let the battery fully discharge hence there is considerable energy remaining in the battery even though the BMS has discontinued further discharge below the cut off voltage. To make the battery truly safe one needs to by pass the BMS to deplete the voltage fully, that is not something that consumers can achieve.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Your missing the point, you belittle Chinese manufacturing yet happy to have those items , made in China but they are alright because an American company outsourced their manufacturing.

The major lithium battery manufacturers in China make excellent quality products and have excellent engineering of the BMS and packaging and stand by their quality with warranty and indemnification agreements to their OEM clients.

I have had proprietary lithium batteries made by both Wanxiang and CATL. It is a lengthy, complex and expensive proposition to undertake.

China's electric vehicle sector is vastly larger than the USA or Europe and accordingly so is their lithium battery manufacturers.

But I would caution as to who you source from, there are many less than reputable and less skilled intermediaries and even fraudulent labelled products. You do not want to risk being around defective products or designs. Pay for quality of manufacturing, design, engineering and assembly.

I will repeat this is not a subject for amateurs to undertake.