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Old 30-10-2017, 09:11   #1
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Get rid of the starting battery?????

In a previous discussion on batteries I read a couple of mentions of lithium, portable battery systems for engine starting. That idea has been percolating in the back of my mind for a while so thought I would throw it out for discussion and comment.

For me this would open up a very useful space. From preliminary research some of the currently available units seem to have plenty of CCA capacity and claim 20-30 uses before needing to recharge. Also low self discharge so you could store it and forget until/unless needed, just top it off every few months.

Since I have over 600 amp hours of house batteries and lots of charging capacity and options I would then just use the house batteries for starting unless I screwed up and ran them down, they died a sudden death, gremlins ate them or whatever.

So any reasons why or why not? Pros and cons? Recommended brand/model?
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Old 30-10-2017, 10:58   #2
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

For the price of a good jump pack, you could put an "emergency" battery in the boat, with a battery combiner or echo charger to keep it topped up, along with a set of jumper cables (or isolated wiring). And then, no worry about whether the jumper pack's lithium batteries were made by the cheapest vendor and are a fire risk.

Too many nooze stories, too many aviation kerfuffles, over who and how and whether to trust those no-name batteries.

Damned convenient though, that's for sure.

I did use a 17AH AGM battery (backup telco rack surplus) to jump start an MD7A once, and neither party complained about that. Lithium isn't the only portable power.
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Old 30-10-2017, 11:59   #3
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

Well I do already have a dedicated engine battery, a FLA group 27, all wired and switched and echo charged (actually Yandina Combiner charged to be correct). It would just be nice to have that space back because it would be the perfect place for my little hot water heater.
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Old 30-10-2017, 12:06   #4
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

I've used the house bank to start the engine for many years. I do have a G27 start battery, in the off chance that the house bank (4-GC2's) die together. But I've not used the G27 for starting in ages. I also have a extra G27 for windlass, so a backup to the backup.

Having a jump pack for emergency starting should be good enough, I would think.
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Old 30-10-2017, 12:22   #5
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

And yes, I've seen the videos on the daily snooze of cell phones catching fire, hoverboards exploding and laptops going whoosh. That do give you pause for thought, but then none of my laptops have gone boom.
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Old 30-10-2017, 12:38   #6
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

So, you're the other guy who bought a Yandina.(G)

None of my laptops have gone BOOM. Yet. However...I've seen some ten year old (supposedly dead dead) EPIRB batteries make violent protests and choking fumes when trying to coax them out of potting compound. And, when simply trying to open the 9-cell laptop battery pack ("dead" according to the laptop) to see if I could salvage a couple of cells, just flexing the case made the strapping from one cell short out against a second. Dead or not...sparks and heat and fumes, again. I trust them less and less as time goes by, and have considered getting a square cast iron dutch oven so there will be a truly safe place to put the tablet and phone while I'm sleeping. (Anyone who thinks that is paranoid, I invite you to visit a burn ward.) I wonder if that would block the cell phone signal? It should, but then again, the pestilential things work in elevators too.

Maybe there's room to put a 22A AGM battery in, replacing the G27 and liberating some space? Since the AGM cares a lot less about positions?

Or maybe the lithium jump pack, with a couple of those fire-resistant pouches that R/C folks use to keep their batteries (they don't trust them either) would be the way to go.
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Old 30-10-2017, 12:51   #7
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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And yes, I've seen the videos on the daily snooze of cell phones catching fire, hoverboards exploding and laptops going whoosh. That do give you pause for thought, but then none of my laptops have gone boom.
I drive a hybrid car. Leave it alone for 3 months and you had better find a way to start. Seems the hybrids make demands on the start battery to maintain various systems. I learned this after I left the car for an extended period of time, (read: months). I now have one of those 'emergency' batteries in the back of the car.
I will hope it works but will not know until March and April unless I decide to drive the car back Atlanta instead of flying.
I think the key to that small emergency start battery is to make sure it is fully charged.
If it doesn't work, "Hello AAA....", again.
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Old 30-10-2017, 14:20   #8
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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I drive a hybrid car. Leave it alone for 3 months and you had better find a way to start. Seems the hybrids make demands on the start battery to maintain various systems. I learned this after I left the car for an extended period of time, (read: months). I now have one of those 'emergency' batteries in the back of the car.
I will hope it works but will not know until March and April unless I decide to drive the car back Atlanta instead of flying.
I think the key to that small emergency start battery is to make sure it is fully charged.
If it doesn't work, "Hello AAA....", again.
What kind of hybrid? We have a Prius and just left it for about three months and no problem when we got home. It does have a small FLA starting battery separate from the main drive batteries so maybe that helped.
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Old 30-10-2017, 14:47   #9
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
In a previous discussion on batteries I read a couple of mentions of lithium, portable battery systems for engine starting. That idea has been percolating in the back of my mind for a while so thought I would throw it out for discussion and comment.

For me this would open up a very useful space. From preliminary research some of the currently available units seem to have plenty of CCA capacity and claim 20-30 uses before needing to recharge. Also low self discharge so you could store it and forget until/unless needed, just top it off every few months.

Since I have over 600 amp hours of house batteries and lots of charging capacity and options I would then just use the house batteries for starting unless I screwed up and ran them down, they died a sudden death, gremlins ate them or whatever.

So any reasons why or why not? Pros and cons? Recommended brand/model?

I think the idea is just fine. Of course you could probably move that start battery somewhere out of the way and just keep it charged with an echo type arrangement, but not hook it up to the engine at all.
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Old 30-10-2017, 15:06   #10
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Get rid of the starting battery?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
What kind of hybrid? We have a Prius and just left it for about three months and no problem when we got home. It does have a small FLA starting battery separate from the main drive batteries so maybe that helped.


The Prius 12V battery is just there to boot the computer and bring the large traction battery online, it doesn’t start anything. A Prius, just like all modern cars does have “dark current” though, small drains on the battery.
There is a replacement Optima Yellow top battery for the Prius, it’s a deep cycle battery as that is what the Prius needs, not a start battery.

Be very, very careful if you ever jump a Prius, you can damage the inverter if your not careful, and that is thousands of dollars. Read the manual. Your only booting the computer, it takes the traction battery to start the engine.

On the Boat, I see a starting battery as silly, why have a separate battery to crank a baby Diesel when you have a monster bank that can do it with much less voltage drop.
I have two banks, one 440 AH the other 220 AH. I leave them combined as one bank. I can’t see the logic of a stand alone battery to start anything.
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Old 30-10-2017, 15:34   #11
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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What kind of hybrid? We have a Prius and just left it for about three months and no problem when we got home. It does have a small FLA starting battery separate from the main drive batteries so maybe that helped.
I had a Ford CMax. That was the one that didn't start after 10 months of 'sitting'. It was totaled at a stop light. Hit from the rear, pushed into the truck in front.
It got totaled, in my mind, but I still drove it to the dealership to confirm the total.
They had a nice Lincoln MKZ hybrid 2 years old. Got it at a reasonable price. Now I drive an old-farts car. If I don't drive it to Atlanta from Hallandale FL, "we" will see if it starts. Neither the CMax nor the MKZ got the advertised milage. Both are/were better than my Grand Marque.
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Old 30-10-2017, 15:48   #12
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

[QUOTE=a64pilot. I can’t see the logic of a stand alone battery to start anything.[/QUOTE]

You wake up some morning and the main battery bank is dead? If you get down into the ITCZ and there is no wind and no sun for days and you have all that cold beer... It could happen.
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Old 30-10-2017, 15:53   #13
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

In a perfect world this will work.


Unfortunately, I believe Murphy was an optimist. IMHO, a single dedicated engine battery with an electronic combiner, and manual override switch is bullet proof and ensure you are never in a spot where the engine will not start.
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Old 30-10-2017, 16:19   #14
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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You wake up some morning and the main battery bank is dead? If you get down into the ITCZ and there is no wind and no sun for days and you have all that cold beer... It could happen.
Wouldn't the Li jump starter fix this. They have a readout showing % charged and once the motor is running you recharge off the 6v system.
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Old 30-10-2017, 16:29   #15
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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Wouldn't the Li jump starter fix this. They have a readout showing % charged and once the motor is running you recharge off the 6v system.
I sort of doubt the LI jump could start my Cummins 380 but I suspect it would start my Northerlights. Once the gen is started, it's just a matter of waiting until the battery charger does enough work to start the main engine.
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