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Old 17-11-2017, 01:56   #76
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

There is another option that I have seen up north here in Sweden for starting diesels when itís too cold. The engine is equipped with a large spring that is winded up when the engine is running and that is used to start the engine.
It works as long as the engine starts at the first attempt. If not you have to wind it up manually.
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Old 17-11-2017, 02:07   #77
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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Originally Posted by Bjorn_O View Post
There is another option that I have seen up north here in Sweden for starting diesels when itís too cold. The engine is equipped with a large spring that is winded up when the engine is running and that is used to start the engine.
It works as long as the engine starts at the first attempt. If not you have to wind it up manually.
What an interesting concept. Please tell us more and if possible, pictures too.

Years ago, I did run into a guy who would air start his engine from a SUBA tank.

The US Navy used to air start their diesels. Maybe they still do. SHRUG
I do know it worked.
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Old 17-11-2017, 10:06   #78
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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Originally Posted by Olddan1943 View Post
What an interesting concept. Please tell us more and if possible, pictures too.



Years ago, I did run into a guy who would air start his engine from a SUBA tank.



The US Navy used to air start their diesels. Maybe they still do. SHRUG

I do know it worked.


Sorry, I have no images, but it is described in the web.

you can find it in wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_(engine)
(look under "non motor")

operation of a manually loaded spring starter : https://youtu.be/An0PnUawiHY
(the version I saw was automaically loaded when the engine was running)
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Old 17-11-2017, 10:59   #79
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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Originally Posted by Bjorn_O View Post
Sorry, I have no images, but it is described in the web.

you can find it in wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_(engine)
(look under "non motor")

operation of a manually loaded spring starter : https://youtu.be/An0PnUawiHY
(the version I saw was automaically loaded when the engine was running)
Interesting, thanks.
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Old 17-11-2017, 19:32   #80
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Get rid of the starting battery?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olddan1943 View Post
What an interesting concept. Please tell us more and if possible, pictures too.



Years ago, I did run into a guy who would air start his engine from a SUBA tank.



The US Navy used to air start their diesels. Maybe they still do. SHRUG

I do know it worked.


Old trucks used to as well. Would scare the stuffing out of you if you were close and didnít expect it, cause it was LOUD. Think monster air wrench kind of sound.
Ah-64ís and FA-18ís APU is started from a hydraulic accumulator, one shot, then a LOT of pumping to try it again, most all larger turbine engines are air started, and air motor weighs almost nothing compared to a similar powered electric motor, and they donít overheat like an electric starter can.
https://youtu.be/jXcfvWkAtbs

I think all giant ship Diesels are air started, but by air pressure directly into the cylinder, but I have not been around them
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Old 17-11-2017, 20:58   #81
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjorn_O View Post
There is another option that I have seen up north here in Sweden for starting diesels when itís too cold. The engine is equipped with a large spring that is winded up when the engine is running and that is used to start the engine.
It works as long as the engine starts at the first attempt. If not you have to wind it up manually.
Here is a link to a company that makes such 'spring' starter motors:
HSS/HSR | Kineteco
Expensive option though.

As for me doing without an dedicated engine starter battery: I will keep mine, as a small battery, just big enough to start the engine comfortably. That small battery is charged with the housebank via a small DC-DC charger, that is alternator output goes directly to the much larger housebank.

I think introducing a mobile starter unit, or even hardwiring that, is more complicated than maintaining a small lead acid (AGM or conventional) battery. Only when boat is on a diet, and wallet is not, then lighter batteries to be considered ie LiFePO, but with that comes much more complicated charging setup, as far as I know.

So to keep it simple, in my view: small engine starting battery charged by housebank with VSR (voltage sensitive relay) or DC-DC charger. VSR if housebank and engine batteries are the same type, and DC-DC charger if not. No need for switches, no room for error. For me... so far so good.
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Old 18-11-2017, 08:02   #82
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

The venerable 4-108 was available with a spring starter for use in lifeboats.
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Old 18-11-2017, 08:39   #83
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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Old trucks used to as well. Would scare the stuffing out of you if you were close and didnít expect it, cause it was LOUD. Think monster air wrench kind of sound.
Ah-64ís and FA-18ís APU is started from a hydraulic accumulator, one shot, then a LOT of pumping to try it again, most all larger turbine engines are air started, and air motor weighs almost nothing compared to a similar powered electric motor, and they donít overheat like an electric starter can.
https://youtu.be/jXcfvWkAtbs

I think all giant ship Diesels are air started, but by air pressure directly into the cylinder, but I have not been around them
Even expecting it, the air start will definitely get your attention.
Put a diesel inside a submarine hull, stand next to it, start the engine and try not to pass out. Besides the noise from the air start and the noise of the diesel starting and then running the ambient noise will definitely take the smile off your face.
These were the days before ear muffs were required, assuming they are required now.
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Old 18-11-2017, 08:41   #84
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Old trucks used to as well. Would scare the stuffing out of you if you were close and didnít expect it, cause it was LOUD. Think monster air wrench kind of sound.
Ah-64ís and FA-18ís APU is started from a hydraulic accumulator, one shot, then a LOT of pumping to try it again, most all larger turbine engines are air started, and air motor weighs almost nothing compared to a similar powered electric motor, and they donít overheat like an electric starter can.
https://youtu.be/jXcfvWkAtbs

I think all giant ship Diesels are air started, but by air pressure directly into the cylinder, but I have not been around them
That wind up starter sure does look pretty and then even painted it white!!!
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Old 18-11-2017, 09:09   #85
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankOnthewater View Post
Here is a link to a company that makes such 'spring' starter motors:
HSS/HSR | Kineteco
Expensive option though.

As for me doing without an dedicated engine starter battery: I will keep mine, as a small battery, just big enough to start the engine comfortably. That small battery is charged with the housebank via a small DC-DC charger, that is alternator output goes directly to the much larger housebank.

I think introducing a mobile starter unit, or even hardwiring that, is more complicated than maintaining a small lead acid (AGM or conventional) battery. Only when boat is on a diet, and wallet is not, then lighter batteries to be considered ie LiFePO, but with that comes much more complicated charging setup, as far as I know.

So to keep it simple, in my view: small engine starting battery charged by housebank with VSR (voltage sensitive relay) or DC-DC charger. VSR if housebank and engine batteries are the same type, and DC-DC charger if not. No need for switches, no room for error. For me... so far so good.
I am considering the lifepo4 option for my new install most of the small batteries I have located that will do the job say they are comparable with sla chargers. ( sealed lead acid).
So that would be a good option. Ymmv
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Old 29-12-2017, 07:56   #86
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

This was an interesting read.

Too bad we cannot hand crank our diesels anymore.
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Old 29-12-2017, 08:34   #87
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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This was an interesting read.

Too bad we cannot hand crank our diesels anymore.
I'm one of the lucky ones I can still hand start mine
Don't really want to but I can.
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Old 29-12-2017, 18:11   #88
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

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Wouldn't the Li jump starter fix this. They have a readout showing % charged and once the motor is running you recharge off the 6v system.
I'm back with my little Motorhome, 2.8l diesel, and just replaced the 45AH house batt plus starter batt with one 130AH battery.(Already had a 120w solar panel) So far so good and unlike the old set-up can keep our fridge going without risking battery damage.
Also bought a 'Powerall Supreme' jump starter as back-up.
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Old 29-12-2017, 20:42   #89
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Re: Get rid of the starting battery?????

Great setup
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