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Old 17-07-2014, 05:38   #16
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Re: Generator setup.

An Eu 2000 in "eco mode" will make 1000W with not nearly the amount of noise that a 1000W gen will. Don't get the 1000W
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Old 17-07-2014, 05:39   #17
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Re: Generator setup.

I'm with dockhead - If you can't do the "mission" between charges you need more storage.

If you get more storage you need to replenish the usage. You need to replenish the usage with the quickest energy.

Do you know what the fridge draws? Let's say it's 4 amps - You need 100 amps a day before anything else is run.

Let's swag your consumption at 150amps. You have 240 stored 120 usable. You aren't covering half your daily need. But 150 explains why you keep up when the windgen is spinning.

If you get battery storage up to at least 300 you cover a day. 450 would probably be better.

If you go with 2 X 130 solar (potentially 21 amps/hour when its sunny) you'll likely net 78 amps a day - than half way covering your daily needs. The windgen can get you most of the way there and you still might need to run the engine on a long camp out if it's cloudy.

60 watts of solar is probably only netting you 18 amps a day

The big trick here for me is the alternative to 78 amps of new solar is $1,000 for a Honda and charger. That's 25 amps all the time, anytime you need it.
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Old 17-07-2014, 06:36   #18
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Re: Generator setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
A 25 amp charger not be enough even with a small bank. You will have the Honda running all day. With 240 amps you will have about 100 amps before you have to recharge the batteries. You will be using the band from 100 to 200 amps in your 240 amp bank as the last 15% will take too long to recharge. It'll take you about 5 hours to put 100 amps into the bank with a 25 amp charger.

I would get a Honda EU2000i and a 100 amp charger. Then you will have plenty of charging power even if you increase the house bank (which you should).

If you're running a fridge with the 240 amp bank you will be running the Honda every day as conservative power usage will still mean about 80 - 100 amps a day.
100 amps of charger will fry a 240 amp/hour battery bank (unless they're AGM's, but i don't think he wants to go there). If he increases the bank to 320 amp/hours, that's still well over 25%C.

But your point is valid of course -- he will want as much charging power as can be run by his generator at a comfortable % of its maximum capacity, and which at the same time does not exceed say 20%C (maximum 25%C for FLA). If he ends up with a 320 amp/hour bank, then he'll want about 60 amps, and yes -- for this much charger, he will need the larger EU2000i generator.

Cycling between 50% and say 85%, he will have usable capacity of probably 100 amp/hours or so (when the batteries are new!), and that will take about 2 hours with a 60 amp charger. That will be around 1000 watts, I guess, depending on the efficiency of the charger, which is a comfortable load for the EU2000i, leaving some capacity for other AC loads.
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Old 17-07-2014, 06:56   #19
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Re: Generator setup.

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's an amount of power which regular FLA batts will accept without too much bubble and fizz, during the best part of the bulk phase. .
Can you get batts boiling during the relatively lower voltages of bulk?
I thought they only gassed during higher absorption voltages, with enough energy available to break the hydrogen /oxygen bonds.

After a quick Google....

http://www.powerstream.com/SLA-fast-charge.htm

In the book*Electric Vehicle Battery Systems*By Sandeep Dhameja he states that "Fast charging does not exhibit detrimental effects on battery cycle life." He is talking about a charge rate of 8C to 9C, though he does not charge at this rate beyond 80% state of charge.*

In the book*Valve-regulated Lead-acid Batteries*by David Anthony James Rand, P. T. Moseley, J. Garche, C. D. Park it says:

" . . . it is now abundantly clear that thin-plate VRLA batteries can be fast charged with excellent results.*Contrary to previous beliefs, for a given VRLA product, the imposition of aggressive charging algorithms that minimize the effects of the oxygen cycle and finish the charge relatively quickly can result in superior cycle lives."

In other words, fast charging will give you more cycles than staying below C/3!
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Old 17-07-2014, 07:18   #20
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Re: Generator setup.

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Can you get batts boiling during the relatively lower voltages of bulk?
I thought they only gassed during higher absorption voltages, with enough energy available to break the hydrogen /oxygen bonds.

After a quick Google....

Fast charging of sealed lead acid batteries.

In the book*Electric Vehicle Battery Systems*By Sandeep Dhameja he states that "Fast charging does not exhibit detrimental effects on battery cycle life." He is talking about a charge rate of 8C to 9C, though he does not charge at this rate beyond 80% state of charge.*

In the book*Valve-regulated Lead-acid Batteries*by David Anthony James Rand, P. T. Moseley, J. Garche, C. D. Park it says:

" . . . it is now abundantly clear that thin-plate VRLA batteries can be fast charged with excellent results.*Contrary to previous beliefs, for a given VRLA product, the imposition of aggressive charging algorithms that minimize the effects of the oxygen cycle and finish the charge relatively quickly can result in superior cycle lives."

In other words, fast charging will give you more cycles than staying below C/3!
Keep in mind that this is talking about VRLA batts -- valve-regulated, so AGM or gel cells, not the normal FLA batts most of us use. Furthermore, this is talking about thin-plate batts, so starting-type batts, not deep cycle batts.

Trojan recommend never exceeding 20%C; Rolls even say 10%C. I am no expert, and maybe some of the several much more knowledgeable people around here could speak up, but my reading says that pushing too much current (more than 20%C) through a deep cycle FLA batt will boil the electrolyte (N.B. -- not the same phenomenon as the gassing which occurs at higher voltages), stratify the electrolyte, and break down the plates from heat, shortening the battery's life.

If this is a myth, it seems to still be subscribed to by the makers of these batteries, and I'm sure not going to be the one to experiment with it.
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Old 17-07-2014, 07:24   #21
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Re: Generator Setup.

The first think I would do is an energy budget.

The most important question is
"Can I fit enough solar (practically and aestheticly) to solve my energy problem.
If the answer is yes I think this is much better solution than a petrol generator.

If going for the generator option I would fit a bigger battery bank and a larger battery charger (with the larger Honda) You really don't want to run a generator move often, or longer than necessary.

If going solar I am not sure a larger bank is needed. You once again need a careful energy budget. The extra usable amount of energy gain is only slight, unless you can frequently charge more than your batteries will store.
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Old 17-07-2014, 11:01   #22
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Re: Generator Setup.

I'm with the bigger battery bank first, more solar panels next crowd. We have 4 golf cart batts, total 450ah, which works well with requirements similar to yours.

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Old 17-07-2014, 12:18   #23
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Re: Generator setup.

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I love the honda generators, but I would really recommend going to the 2kw. It's basically the same size, weight, and fuel burn but double the capacity. I have one of each, and while they are both great I really wish I had two 2kw instead.
I agree with this answer. The price, weight, efficiency and output difference makes the 2000 a better deal than the 1000. The 1000 will barely be able to power any decent sized charger and it will be screaming it's lungs out at max. output, no fun for you or anyone nearby.

I know tons of people with 2000s, lots of them with 2x2000s in parallel and one with a 2000 and a 3000 in parallel. Many of them said they needed more power than a single 2000 could provide, thus they bought the 2nd one. I don't know a single person who said that the 2000 was too big and switched to a 1000 (which is really only 800w BTW.)

You can get a used Honda 2000 for a decent price, they seem to just run forever.
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Old 17-07-2014, 13:15   #24
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Re: Generator Setup.

I believe the 2000 is only 1600 at 100% duty cycle, yes it's make 2,000 W, but not continuously.
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Old 17-07-2014, 13:53   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I believe the 2000 is only 1600 at 100% duty cycle, yes it's make 2,000 W, but not continuously.
If you spend periods hooked up to shore power you might want to look at a Xantrex invertor charger with remote panel. This allows you to charge at higher rates when using shore power but you can dial the unit down to match the input source when needed.

I had to add the remote as when I tried charging with my 2000 watt unit it would kick out when ever the batteries were low and were drawing more amps. The remote with the ability to limit input amps solved the problem.

Henry
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Old 17-07-2014, 15:05   #26
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Re: Generator Setup.

I'm in the same boat, pardon the pun. I recently did an energy usage analysis for my boat and broke it down into weekending, cruising and passagemaking. To get to the point, I've included a 1000w inverter generator into the generation side. Based on using a 50 Amps of charger, I see it as an alternative to the diesel engine and its alternator. On my boat, the diesel uses about 1.7 lph to charge batteries at anchor whereas the Honda generator will use about 0.4 lph. Normally I need to run for 1 to 2 hours a day to top up the batteries. I personally wouldn't consider the 2000w model because I have no use for the additional output and prefer the lower weight and smaller dimensions. If, oth, I had stuff that could use this added capacity, I would go for the bigger model.
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Old 17-07-2014, 15:35   #27
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Re: Generator Setup.

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I'm in the same boat, pardon the pun. I recently did an energy usage analysis for my boat and broke it down into weekending, cruising and passagemaking. To get to the point, I've included a 1000w inverter generator into the generation side. Based on using a 50 Amps of charger, I see it as an alternative to the diesel engine and its alternator. On my boat, the diesel uses about 1.7 lph to charge batteries at anchor whereas the Honda generator will use about 0.4 lph. Normally I need to run for 1 to 2 hours a day to top up the batteries. I personally wouldn't consider the 2000w model because I have no use for the additional output and prefer the lower weight and smaller dimensions. If, oth, I had stuff that could use this added capacity, I would go for the bigger model.

Are you sure an Eu1000 is powerful enough to run a 50 amp charger? At full power, 800w, an Eu1000 only puts out 6.67 A. An Eu2000 puts out 13.3 A.

I had a 40 A and a 75 A charger, and together, they drew more current than my Eu3000i could produce (21.67 A) The 75 A charger alone drew over 15 A, probably 17 or 18 A.
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Old 17-07-2014, 16:08   #28
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Re: Generator Setup.

50 amps at 14V is 700W. Add in whatever amount of power is lost as heat in a charger and the little Honda might do it, but it would be running as hard as it could.
The 2000 could do it easily and have enough left over to run your TV etc.
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Old 17-07-2014, 16:39   #29
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Re: Generator Setup.

Thanks everyone. This info is gold. I was under the impression that I could run the generator for about an hour or two each day and that would solve the problem. But it seems clear that I would have to run it for quite a bit longer than that.
Also. The best price for a 2kva Honda here is about $1500 & $1300 for the 1 kva plus the $350 for the Ctek 25 amp charger or more if I up it to a 50 amp which is a more suitable size.
At best it will cost me $1700. So there is my answer. I can buy additional batteries and allot of solar for that sort of money. So solar it is. I will add some pics as things progress.
No doubt I will have more questions over the next few days.
Thanks again
Jeff

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Old 17-07-2014, 16:55   #30
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Re: Generator Setup.

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
Are you sure an Eu1000 is powerful enough to run a 50 amp charger? At full power, 800w, an Eu1000 only puts out 6.67 A. An Eu2000 puts out 13.3 A.

I had a 40 A and a 75 A charger, and together, they drew more current than my Eu3000i could produce (21.67 A) The 75 A charger alone drew over 15 A, probably 17 or 18 A.
I think it's possible. Used to work at about 65% to 70% efficiency for the old transformer rectifier charging tech but I'm thinking good inverter technology will be around 80% efficient which slips it just under the 100% duty cycle rating of the 1000. Not that it makes any difference, but we use 240 VAC here so max duty cycle output is just a bit over 3 amps.
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