Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-12-2009, 18:28   #31
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
What is a service loop?
__________________

__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 20:02   #32
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillraining View Post
What is a service loop?
That's just some extra length in the wiring.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 02:45   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Boat: boatless atm
Posts: 723
Send a message via MSN to bobfnbw
I went with the sears diehard marine battery. It is a odyssey battery in disguise at 1/2 the cost or so. $250 bucks for 100 ah, but I got them on sale for 10% less. Its the same battery as the pc2150. 100 ah and 2150 cca, tppl, etc. the specs are the same. 3 year warranty. The rack mount looks good.
Wonder why they would discontinue them unless the military bought them all up.
West coast battery has the odyssey 2150 for 323 with free shipping, so the price is coming down, but you can save almost a $100 bucks per battery going with the sears branded one, so for my bank that was a 600 buck savings. Going to try a smaller house bank with increased solar capacity.

One more thing, it there is a warrenty issue and you are still in the states, sears is all over. Much easier to take care of it.
Just a though...
bob
__________________
SV Sarah Claire blog... http://sarah-claire.blogspot.com
bobfnbw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2009, 17:10   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Boat: 1990 Oyster 55
Posts: 287
Very nice description and nice system.

I am just starting to dig into the mess which the AC system is on my new vessel and I ran into an interesting problem:

About half of the US marinas which have plugs which are 120/240 (or 125/250 on the plug if I remember correctly) are actually two out of three phases from a three phase source.

So, instead of having two phases which are 180 degrees out of phase and the neutral to hot on each phase being 120V you now have two phases which are 120 degrees out of phase.

The result is 208V (yes, I had to get out Matlab for a minute to think about it but it is still a sinusoid) power.

The downside is that split phase inverters (the 120/240V equipment) will refuse to talk to it (for example the Xantrex equipment)

The biggest issue is that while most equipment designed for 230V will run from about 205V up to 255V it is down near the bottom and equipment is pulling more amperage and struggling.

In my case the boat started out as a 230V system, single phase with neutral & hot, single pole breakers with the exception of the GFCIs for each of the two load panels.

So, I am looking at various solutions to create a generic system which can work with the existing equipment and have a path toward the future. I recently ran across the Victron Energy equipment and I have been very impressed. Your post has been a great confirmation that the equipment works as advertised.

In my most "bulletproof" solution (also the most expensive of course ) is to use two or three of the 100Amp @ 24V battery chargers which can absorb power between 90V and 260V and charge the batteries. This would be able to absorb all of the power from the current dock circuit (which happens to be one of the 208V circuits) and would be able to produce 200 - 300Amps @ 27ish volts.

Then, a pair of the 5KVA Victron 240V inverters to carry the house loads, either in parallel or seperated depending on the current equipment on board.

For example, the washer/dryer is currently a 50 cycle only unit as is the microwave, the air conditioners don't care about frequency, etc.

So, I can parallel the systems or run one as a 50 cycle unit and one as a 60 cycle unit in the event I have some large equipment which requires 60 cycles and other equipment which requires 50 cycle.

Additionally, the generator would be run into the battery chargers (it is an older mechanically governed unit which runs 2hz high when unloaded and 2hz low when fully loaded, an 8KW Westerbeake).

For the 110V circuits I would probably use a small (2kw) unit to drive those independently.

The alternative is a step up transformer (noisy) from Charles marine or there is a high frequency transformer with automatic boost from Mastervolt (I wish Victron produced such a beast).

However, when a combined inverter/charger sees shore power it is going to match the frequency if it is going to provide charging or support capabilities.

So, the question is am I completely nuts? The peak load for the boat is about 9kw if everything is on, reasonable normal loads are in the 5kw range (not all the time but two air conditioners running when at the dock etc)

The other big question (I have a request in with Victron but they have not answered my e-mail request) is if I only wire shore power to the victron battery chargers and they are galvanically isolated (as advertised) does this provide the same isolation as an isolation transformer? If so, this would allow the shore safety ground to stop at the chargers assuming that the wiring is conduited from the shore power plug to the charger compartment and there is no metal objects in with the chargers?

The nice thing is that I can use any type of power commonly found in the world:
230V 50hz (16A, 32A)
240V 60hz (50A)
240V/120V 60hz (50A)
208V/120V 60hz (50A)
120V 60hz (50A, 30A, 20A, 15A)

All that would be required is to tune back the chargers to limit the power consumed from shore power.

From a reliability standpoint, loss of a battery charger is not a huge deal so long as on average there is enough capacity to keep up with the average load. I am concerned that the inverter side running day in and day out might not hold up.

Yes, this is a somewhat complicated system, luckily I do have the technical background to maintain such a system.

Any thoughts are most appreciated.
__________________
botanybay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2009, 08:17   #35
Sponsoring Vendor
 
OceanPlanet's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Woolwich, Maine
Boat: Sold it!
Posts: 401
Send a message via Skype™ to OceanPlanet
Botanybay,

This does sound like a slick way to be able to handle whatever shorepower AC you come across. One question I have is, why NOT use an isolation transformer on the AC feeding the chargers?
OceanPlanet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2010, 02:39   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Boat: 1990 Oyster 55
Posts: 287
The biggest reason is that the 10 KVA transformer is a bit big and can be quite heavy. For example the version from Charles Marine is about 200 lbs!

But it is a good question, if it is completely redundant then I would rather not have the extra losses (an additional 5-7%)

Thanks for the thoughts that it might be a workable solution.

I am currently rebedding all of the deck hardware as the yard which did the deck work for the previous owner used a dot of silicone under each fitting instead of a good job of putting things down.

I just got all of the big saloon portlights out, no damage! But it was about a day per to get them out and there are 7 of them!

At least it gives me time to design the other systems properly!

David
__________________
botanybay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2010, 07:21   #37
Commercial Member
 
CharlieJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Gulfstar Long Range Trawler; 53'; BearBoat
Posts: 837
David-
I am a huge fan and supporter of Victron equipment and have installed many of their blue boxes. However, I think there may be a less expensive solution that will provide the flexibility that you desire.

On very large yachts, a unit called a shore power conditioner, or frequency converter, is usually installed. This unit will convert whatever the input is (125 V/60 Hz, 230 V/50 Hz, 250 V/60 Hz, etc.) into whatever output voltage and frequency is required by the vessel. I have installed one of the 12 kVA models and it has performed flawlessly for four years: http://tinyurl.com/y9vc5hf

Installation of this, or a similar unit, would provide universal shore power capability with a simpler system. If you run the numbers, this option may also be less expensive. Island Marine Electrics in Ft. Lauderdale was the dealer and my supplier: History frame
__________________
Charlie Johnson
JTB Marine Corporation
"The Devil is in the details and so is salvation."
CharlieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 10:14   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Boat: 1990 Oyster 55
Posts: 287
Thanks for the thoughts on the power system Charlie

It turns out that A/Sea systems are right down the street (figuratively) in southern california and I was very interested in the systems.

It looks like a great piece of hardware and is essentially a AC to high voltage DC converter and then a high voltage DC inverter to make whatever power you desire. Which is exactly what I am looking for, the boat always stays on the same kind of internal power no matter what is happening on the dock.

Here are my thoughts for my application there are a couple of choices which make it a bit less attractive... (Definitely looking for feedback here, I'm just going through all of the throught processes)

1) The no load power draw from the shore mains is about 300 watts, most of this is getting eaten up in the power conditioning filters on the output to the boat (not unexpected, getting rid of all of the harmonics can be tough and I am sure they did a great job but it eats power), this average load would double my average power use

2) I don't have inverters or a good battery charger on the boat yet, only an old (1997) charger. I really wish the A/Sea system (or any other like it) provided a connection to the internal DC bus for the unit and go to 24V. Then it would be your AC power conditioner, Battery Charger, and inverter away from the dock, unfortunately it only does power conditioning. (Really regeneration)

3) The cost of the smallest units (the 10kva and 12kva units) is about $17K USD list, the cost of the three 100 amp 24V Victron chargers and the two 5KVA 230/240V 50/60 cycle inverters is something like $13K USD list and about $10K USD discounted.

If the boat already had a good inverter/charger combination I would definitely consider the A/Sea system or similar to be a great solution. As it also provides the galvanic isolation like an isolation transformer.

My big project for the new year is to determine if the Victron battery charger can be used in the same way as the A/Sea equipment to provide isolation and then use dedicated inverters to make power aboard.

Thank you so much for the vote of confidence in the Victron equipment. I have not seen it used on the west coast and so don't have anything to go look at but the computer controls look very nice. (I generally do all of my final systems integration on the boat so I know how it all works and don't get caught with an over computerized system which I can't back down to a simpler system to limp home).

Have a really good new year and thanks again for the responses
__________________
botanybay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2010, 08:58   #39
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
BotanyBay,

Check out the Victron chargers because some of them can take (wide range?) DC input at about 400V. It is not very difficult to create 400V DC from an AC source.

When you have two Quattro units, you could have one charge the batteries and the other invert, effectively changing the frequency. There's a lot of options.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2010, 09:31   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Boat: 1990 Oyster 55
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
BotanyBay,

Check out the Victron chargers because some of them can take (wide range?) DC input at about 400V. It is not very difficult to create 400V DC from an AC source.

When you have two Quattro units, you could have one charge the batteries and the other invert, effectively changing the frequency. There's a lot of options.

cheers,
Nick.
Thanks Nick,

Victron got back to me yesterday and as suspected splitting the ground through a charger is not a recommended approach. To many potential failure mechanisms which could bite you in the backside... Looking at the latest ABYC recommendations for grounds for chargers shows that they have had to think about all of the possible failure mechanisms and provide the correct sized ground for each one.

So, I am back to looking at a pair of 5kw Quattro inverter/chargers and isolation transformers.

The only downside is that when the dock is at 208V vs 240V ships equipment is running on the low end of the voltage range.

Like you say, I may run one as a 60hz 208/240 system and the other as a 50hz 230V system. Using one of the inverter/chargers to provide DC power to the other unit (with batteries in the loop).

An interesting thought is that the generator is running 230V 50hz, shore power is currently 208V 60hz. Run the generator into one unit, shore power into the other unit and whatever power is available gets converted to what is needed.

With the AC 208V/240V bus jumping around on voltage I would not want to run an autotransformer to make 120V power as it would be 104V power when running on 208V shore power.

So, probably a third inverter/charger with a seperate isolation transformer and a direct plug into 120V dock power.

This would mean that with 120V power only I can still create 240V 60hz and 230V 50hz for other equipment.

This would all be easy if the 208V power was not so prevalant in marinas in the US!

Thanks everyone, this is an interesting thread for me!
__________________
botanybay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2010, 19:11   #41
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
I wouldn't worry about the 208V with Victron. I see a 4% boost in voltage from their isolation transformer (the 3.6 kW version) so that would give you more than 216V and 108V after the auto transformer. Pretty perfect for 110V service which is acceptable for all US appliances.

Also, at the dock, we use less power per time unit compared to at anchor. The reason is that the batteries are always charged and we don't run the water maker. That is countered somewhat by using the electric element of the water heater, but 3.6 kW is all we ever need on our 64' boat. At anchor, we have 6kW from the genset and the Quattro can add 3 kW to that for a total of 9 kW as long as the batteries allow it.

This allows us to take the standard 120V 30A outlets which are everywhere. We also have adapters for 120/240V 50A outlets, 250V 50A outlets, the blue EU outlets and even the regular 13A 110V outlets which we get sometimes. We use standard 120V 30A shore power cables that give a little increased risk of overheating when using on outlets that are fused at more than 30A but I don't really have a problem with that (risk is low when the rest is done right).

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2010, 22:40   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post

You could mount one on each engine so you can alternate between the two. But look at the picture when you are running on both engines. If you go this way, I would replace both standard alternators with 220V ones and buy two Victron MultiPlus units (each half the capacity you need, so smaller units) and connect them in parallel. Now you can run any engine configuration and you have back-up. The multiplus will charge your batteries instead of the standard alternator.
The smallest they have is 1200W inverter + 50A charger. When you run both engines you can charge with 100A and you always have 2400W inverter power available. .

ciao!
Nick.

Just looking at this thread and it certainly gives me ideas. Had a look at the Victron site and the multiplus doesn't have parallel operation untill they get up to the 12/3000/120 unit so tying 2 together is out for the small units. Bugger, hope they are not too expensive.

Just need to find some suitable 200V alternators, any ideas Nick

Mike
__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 07:24   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Boat: boatless atm
Posts: 723
Send a message via MSN to bobfnbw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsical View Post

Just need to find some suitable 200V alternators, any ideas Nick

Mike
If you mean 200 AMP alternators, look at the electodyne. They have the best high output alternators out there. 160, 300 and 360 amps at 12 volts. takes a lot of hp to drive them.
__________________
SV Sarah Claire blog... http://sarah-claire.blogspot.com
bobfnbw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 08:37   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spain
Boat: 45' Asphalt Cruiser
Posts: 16
Nick, great info and pictures. I have been reading your many posts and threads nightly to get more information on my particular needs. I'll introduce myself, and kindly ask your opinion/recommendation without disrupting the thread further.

In Europe
We shipped our 45' motorhome to Europe, installing a Mastervolt 100/12 charger capable of accepting shorepower from 94~260vac 50/60hz. This is connected to a 4x 4D Lifeline AGMs on the house side and we run all 120v appliances via a Trace 3000w inverter and run a 12K genny when needing Leg 1 & Leg2 large appliance power (microwave, residential fridge and Mach5 water pump on L1 & 3 aircons, washer dryer, electric water heater on L2).

Ordered
After reading an informative earlier thread you participated on, we ordered a Victron 3600w Isolation Transformer 16/32 (VIT). It is still in transit. We planned to connect the VIT to 240v/50Hz shorepower and feed 120v/50Hz to the Automatic Transfer Switch, jumpering L1 and L2 so we can have a bit of luxury without running the generator for larger appliances.

Victron Autotransformer
We then found the information on the Victron Autotransformer 32A, that has stepdown capability plus separate 115v outputs for L1 and L2. This may be a better solutoon than the VIT above since we are obviously not in water (or should not be with the coach). We cannot find any schematics or manuals for the unit, just the data sheet online.

Stateside vs Europe
In the USA, we connect to 240v/50amp service that is really two 120v hot legs using a common neutral. In Europe, the best we can hope for is a 16-amp 240v (or a pair of them on the shorepower pole).

Questions:
- do you recommend keeping the VIT ordered and using it
- or (my leaning) ordering the Victron Autotransformer and using that
(it then has 120v L1 and L2 output and a common neutral to the ATS)
- what input connections come with the Victron Autotransformer (1 or 2 240vac - can we use two shorepower cords)
- any recommendations (and apologies members on the interruption of vessel type)

Best regards,
Robert
__________________
Ultimarv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2010, 09:22   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spain
Boat: 45' Asphalt Cruiser
Posts: 16
Two schmatic links for above post:
ATS diagram: http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h122/UltimaRV/ATS.jpg
Power distribution diagram: http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h1...aAnnotated.jpg
__________________

__________________
Ultimarv is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
installation

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hydronic Heating System Design ldrumond Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 13-11-2010 20:48
Simple Shore Power Installation daveyjustin Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 18 05-07-2009 10:53
First Electrical System Design drew23 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 2 29-05-2009 14:06
fuel system design Whimsical Engines and Propulsion Systems 5 19-06-2008 05:14
Plumbing System Design knottybuoyz Construction, Maintenance & Refit 27 01-12-2006 10:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.