Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-09-2009, 23:03   #16
Registered User
 
cat man do's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia [until the boats launched]
Boat: 50ft powercat, light,long and low powered
Posts: 4,409
Images: 36
Thanks for the thread Nick , real electricity is something I'll need and its always been a mystery.
Unfortunately all the books that I have on the subject make my eyes glaze over.

What do you think of something like this ENERGO-TEC ?

I already have cummins B3.3 65hp X 2 so don't want an additional diesel generator, but thought the energo-tec may be the go for rapid charging of the banks and occasional heavy load 240v.

Dave
__________________

__________________
"Money can't buy you happiness but it can buy you a yacht large enough to pull up right alongside it"...............David Lee Roth
Long Distance Motorboat Cruising – It Is Possible on a Small Budget
cat man do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2009, 23:20   #17
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Dave,

When you mount that on your engine, you have a genset. They say this is new but I saw it on yachts 20 years ago and it works well. Just feed the output to an inverter/charger and you're good to go!

You could mount one on each engine so you can alternate between the two. But look at the picture when you are running on both engines. If you go this way, I would replace both standard alternators with 220V ones and buy two Victron MultiPlus units (each half the capacity you need, so smaller units) and connect them in parallel. Now you can run any engine configuration and you have back-up. The multiplus will charge your batteries instead of the standard alternator.
The smallest they have is 1200W inverter + 50A charger. When you run both engines you can charge with 100A and you always have 2400W inverter power available. If you need more charging current, you can go up to units with 70A, 80A or 120A each and double that when both engines run. This will bring the inverter part to something bigger than you need but that is the price of a big battery bank. If you want to charge with one engine running, the smallest 50A unit is good for max. 500Ah battery bank. Select the charger to supply between 10% and 20% of total Ah capacity.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 04:55   #18
Registered User
 
Christian Van H's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Princeton, NJ
Boat: Challenger Anacapa 42
Posts: 2,097
Images: 57
Nick, thats amazing! The amount of control this system offers is off the charts. Please post pics of the actual installation when time allows. Thanks, Chris
__________________
www.anacapas.com

Here's to swimmin' with bowlegged women!
Christian Van H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2009, 14:14   #19
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Programming Victron's Virtual Switch

Today, I experimented with the virtual switch in the Victron Quattro unit. This is a programmable software switch, that can change settings within the unit, or it can drive a relay.

We are in a marina with shore power and have a small 8kBTU window A/C unit going 24/7. That A/C unit draws 8A at 120V which is a big load, so I moved it to a separate shore power connection for these tests, making it much like when at anchor or sailing.

I attached 4 images, and will describe what's happening for each one:

  1. This is the main Virtual Switch tab where you choose the usage of this function. The Quattro actually has two virtual switches, but I am only using one for now ;-) I choose to use it for ignoring AC input (or not).
    Confusing is that "Invert virtual switch usage" setting. You have to write it down to prevent mistakes. When I activate the virtual switch, I ignore incoming DC so I "disconnect" shorepower. You could turn that around by setting this "invert flag".
    On the left you see typical values during 99% of the time with my programming active: There is 257V incoming AC available but it isn't used (IMains = 0.0A). The voltage is high because there's no load and it's coming from the isolation transformer. AC output is 240V at 1A so it is in inverter-mode. DC voltage is 13V and it is drawing 21A from that. This means it is consuming 13x21=273W and delivering 1x240=240W. There is 33W overhead/loss which translates in 88% efficiency, a normal value for a 12V DC inverter at 8% utilization.
    Last but not least: the "Ignore AC" is "1" so active. This is the reason that the unit is using it's inverter instead of the available shore power. But the battery voltage is high at 13V because all of the 21A used is coming from the solar array (it is delivering more, which is used for charging the batteries).
    Think about this: 100% of solar power is used. First, all AC loads are powered from it without using the batteries, so maximum efficiency. The rest of the solar power is used to charge the batteries. This is the very best thing that can be done with the power from the solar array!
  2. Here I configured when the virtual switch must be activated. I choose to do so if the AC load is higher than 750W for 3 seconds or when battery voltage drops under 11.75V or if any of the pre-alarms are active. You can even activate the switch when the fan is running for x seconds. Nice, nice.
  3. Here you define when the virtual switch must be de-activated. I did the simplest config: de-activate 1 minute after bulk-charge phase is finished. Look at all the other options available!!
  4. Here's some additional options. The only thing I used is a 1-minute minimum on-time of the virtual switch, solving possible problems when the settings in step 3 lack a hysteresis. I don't need it now because there's a 1 minute delay in step 3 already, but it doesn't hurt either. But look at the other option... you can change the output frequency of the inverter with the virtual switch (50/60Hz) !!!
    Also, just for fun and demonstartion, I switched the water heater on, so load increased from 1.0 to 4.1A This is a 1kW load so well over the 750W I defined in step 2, so 3 seconds later the virtual switch was activated and the "Ignore AC" value is now "0". So, the unit switched to the incoming AC and switched it's inverter off-line. It is now drawing 11.0A at 247V (still pretty high huh!) of which 4.1A is sent to the boat (3.1A used by water heater) and the rest for charging the batteries. The DC output is 103A at 13.6V.
    A couple minutes later the charger switched to absorption mode and 1 minute later, shore power was cut off again and it resumed in inverter mode. Wow!
There are many combinations possible, plus there's two of these switches that can be used in certain combinations, plus a relay that can be driven with it. The relay contacts are available as terminal positions on the Quattro unit (relay is inside the unit). You can even make a program like mine above and add automatic genset starting stopping using the 2nd virtual switch coupled to the relay contacts. The only wish I could come up with is to be able to control the powerAssist function and charger output-current too, so I emailed a request for that additional feature to Victron ;-)

I don't know of any other brand offering all this. I do know the next step: running your own programs/scripts on the Quattro's CPU... I might even try to hack it so I can do that ;-)

On to more discoveries with the new system!

ciao!
Nick.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1.JPG
Views:	395
Size:	60.7 KB
ID:	9828   Click image for larger version

Name:	2.JPG
Views:	482
Size:	66.5 KB
ID:	9829  

Click image for larger version

Name:	3.JPG
Views:	312
Size:	63.4 KB
ID:	9830   Click image for larger version

Name:	4.JPG
Views:	287
Size:	56.5 KB
ID:	9831  

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-09-2009, 08:29   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Boat: boatless atm
Posts: 722
Send a message via MSN to bobfnbw
Nice setup nick. Nice to have the space for all that I bet.

Question...
I wanted to use a victron inverter charger, the phoenix 12v/3000w/120 amp
But my shore power connection is 120/240v at 50 amps, or will be once its installed. The phoenix only inputs 120v. Does that mean I need to split the line voltage at the distribution box first then power the other circuits via the inverter to a different distribution ? How does one intergrate a 120/240 circuit into a 120v inverter ? The install manual at the victron site is unclear on that.


Bob
__________________
bobfnbw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2009, 08:21   #21
Registered User
 
lorenzo b's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Panama
Boat: Steel trawler 63' Eileen Farrell
Posts: 961
s/v Jedi
So did you load your genset 75% for 50 hrs or 100 hrs?
I'm doing mine for the full 100 but now that I'm done with that, is it OK to load it lightly from now on? I've got a 20k.
Thanx
__________________
lorenzo b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-09-2009, 15:58   #22
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw View Post
Nice setup nick. Nice to have the space for all that I bet.

Question...
I wanted to use a victron inverter charger, the phoenix 12v/3000w/120 amp
But my shore power connection is 120/240v at 50 amps, or will be once its installed. The phoenix only inputs 120v. Does that mean I need to split the line voltage at the distribution box first then power the other circuits via the inverter to a different distribution ? How does one intergrate a 120/240 circuit into a 120v inverter ? The install manual at the victron site is unclear on that.


Bob
Bob,

If you look back in this thread, you see how I did it. I used 240V versions of the Victron units, instead of 120V. After that, you can use a auto transformer to create the two 120V legs again.

The only other way to do it is by using two 120V units, one for each leg. The two units are configured and synchronized to do that. The big disadvantage is that you never get the full use of available power because it must be balanced over the two legs. An example:

You have two 120V 3000W multi-plus units bridged for 120/240V service. In inverter mode, you can load each leg up to a maximum of 3000W, even if the other leg has room. So, if both legs are at 2000W, you can't switch on a 120V 1500W device because that would bring one leg to 3500W. You can't use the 1000W left at the other leg.

With my system, you don't have that problem, plus you only need one inverter/charger if that provides enough capacity. But you need to order the EU version (230V/50Hz). In the configuration you can change that to 240V 60Hz. You finish the install with the $400 or so auto transformer and you can use all power on any leg. The auto transformer can take a maximum of 32A in-balance, like 10A on L1 and 42A on L2. On the 240V side, you just have 26A at 240V in that case because there's no neutral there.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2009, 15:03   #23
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Photo's are now coming on-line!

It's still not finished yet, but the photo's are coming on-line. When you click the photo below, you get the album with the rest.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 09:50   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: the golden state
Boat: pilot cutter
Posts: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
You know, I'm starting to be a believer in the few on this Forum who wanted to go with a portable gen set (Nick's system looks great for a boat his size). I had the opportunity to use a Honda 2000i Generator over the weekend. I used it for about 6 hours non stop. It is rated at 13.3 amps AC (also has a 12Volt output) I had 9 different appliances connected to it totaling between 22 and 25 amps (based on ratings) I put gas in it once just in case it was getting low. When I was shown the unit, I almost tripped over it it was so quiet.. It's rated at 59Db (when I'm speaking on the phone I'm about 62-65 Db) Costs about $1000....When you think of the complication of everything else, You have to carry dingy gas anyway, maybe a sealed on board gas tank and one of these DOES make a lot of sense.. especially if all your batteries are dead and you cant start your engine! (sorry not meaning to steal the thread...)
Yes, for smaller boats the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) is a definite advantage, along with a portable generator. But look at the s/v Jedi vessel.... it's 65' (?) or so long and costs more than many houses used (circa 1995 vessels valued at $650,000 today), which is basically a house with sails. All that it needs is a tow-behind garage for housing 220v power tools
__________________
Not Sure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 09:58   #25
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
Very impressive
__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 10:03   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,413
Nice work Nick. But I wouldn't expect less for a proper fitted yacht of that size. Now let's hope all the gear stands up. Did you do the wiring etc. alone or have someone else do it or assist you?

Do you have service loops? You see them with lots of electrics which lets you work on the device with the constraint of wires cut to exact length - some which can be connect and removed from their working location. In some cases they are absolutely necessary and others not so.

What say you?
__________________
Sandero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 14:47   #27
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by defjef View Post
Nice work Nick. But I wouldn't expect less for a proper fitted yacht of that size. Now let's hope all the gear stands up. Did you do the wiring etc. alone or have someone else do it or assist you?

Do you have service loops? You see them with lots of electrics which lets you work on the device with the constraint of wires cut to exact length - some which can be connect and removed from their working location. In some cases they are absolutely necessary and others not so.
I think this system makes sense for all boats 45' and up. For full time liveaboards I would take that number down to 40'. I know the photo looks like a wall full of stuff but it isn't that big, say 4' wide. The exhaust hose is 3".

The Victron equipment has a very good reputation for durability so we'll test that ;-) I did the complete install myself. There's service loops inside all the equipment and the terminal strips allow jumpering to bypass units in case they fail etc. The small charger has just a cord with plug so I can hook it up to an outlet in the engine room or use an extension cord to wherever I need to hook it up to.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 15:00   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Boat: boatless atm
Posts: 722
Send a message via MSN to bobfnbw
Nick great job.
BTW Victron specifically says not to mount the gear over batteries. I am sure you know that, so did you just run out of room? or is it due to them being agms?

Bob
__________________
SV Sarah Claire blog... http://sarah-claire.blogspot.com
bobfnbw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 16:32   #29
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobfnbw View Post
Nick great job.
BTW Victron specifically says not to mount the gear over batteries. I am sure you know that, so did you just run out of room? or is it due to them being agms?

Bob
Yes, with AGM's and gel's it's not a problem. Don't do that with vented batteries though as it'll quickly eat the units.

I am very impressed with the Odyssey batteries and I'm already looking at thm for the house bank... they have great "rack-mount" versions for that....

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 16:39   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Out cruising
Boat: Bruckmann 50
Posts: 521
Nick,
I tried to buy some of those rack mount Odyssey batteries a couple months and was told by one of the distributers they were discontinued. They are still on the website though so you may find them. I was unable to. They looked like a perfect solution for my space.
Good luck.

Jim
__________________

__________________
jkleins is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
installation

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hydronic Heating System Design ldrumond Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 13-11-2010 20:48
Simple Shore Power Installation daveyjustin Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 18 05-07-2009 10:53
First Electrical System Design drew23 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 2 29-05-2009 14:06
fuel system design Whimsical Engines and Propulsion Systems 5 19-06-2008 05:14
Plumbing System Design knottybuoyz Construction, Maintenance & Refit 27 01-12-2006 10:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.