Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-06-2012, 18:52   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ontario canada
Boat: grampian 26
Posts: 1,743
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

I would think that the cylinder walls would be dry after sitting idle for awhile if you have glazed cylinder walls, temporarily reducing compression until the cylinders are oiled.

Watch the exhaust discharge as it starts and note the colour and quantity of the smoke and judge if you were getting an injection on every stroke. If you are you should see greyish white to black to clearish.
A diesel operated at rated load produces enough combustion pressure to force the rings against the cylinder walls to produce a good seal. Under running it burnishes the cross hatching so the oil has no "tooth" to cling to. This is from my college marine engine instructor.
__________________

__________________
perchance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2012, 19:52   #32
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Wow, there is lots of (mis)informed speculation about this engine. It should be easy to rule out some of the theories by doing the following:

!. To rule out low compression and cylinder glazing without the expense of a compression test, blow a hair dryer in the intake after the boat has been sitting for a month and see if it starts readily. If it does it is low compression. But I don't see how. The OP said that the engine started easily stone cold a few days after running but not after 30 days.

2. To rule out the oil pressure switch keeping the fuel solenoid closed until it opens, disconnect it. It will then act like oil pressure is present and the engine should readily start. Having an oil pressure switch connected to the fuel solenoid is kind of screwball IMO, but F-P engineers do screwball things with their equipment.

3. An air leak is going to be harder to rule out. The fittings may look tight but may have a burr on the sealing face. You can temporarily plumb a length of clear tubing just before the fuel pump and watch for air bubbles as you crank it.

My money is still on #3.

David
David,

My first post to this topic gave an efficient trouble shooting schema
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Makes no sense at all, first the oil galleries won't hold pressure for more then a couple of seconds after the oil pump shuts down ie: engine stops.

Oil in the cylinders will create grater compression at the rings when wet, less then when dry after setting for a week or 2. A sign of low compression or improper break-in, or lightly loaded causing cylinder glazing, which results in low compression.

Second, most generators use a bypass alarm circuit, during the the start crank.

So that leaves either fuel pressure, bc of air in the system, low turnover during cranking or low compression.

Low compression can be caused by improper brake-in when the engine was new, and will only gradually get to the point that it shows up after warm-up.

Trouble shoot as follows:

Make sure the battery has enough cold cranking amps to turn the engine over at cold start-up.

Trouble shoot as follows: pressure test the fuel systems and make sure it holds pressure.

Do a compression check on the engine cylinders when cold, and then after warm. A differential will be suspect.

Lloyd
1. Check the bat for enough cold cranking amps.
this is an easy test

2. Pressure test the fuel system.
this is a little more difficult, but still pretty simple. Disconnect the fuel line at the tank, get from the hardware store if you don't have it already, a plumbing air pressure gauge and schrader valve, connect it up to the fuel line, make sure to use good clean filtered air, then charge the system to about 30 lbs. Wait over night if there has been no leak down then we know that the plumbing between the tank and the injector pump has no leaks. If its a fuel air leak then it's time to service the injector.

3. Do a compression test, first cold then warm.
again this is a very simple test, we're talking about a 1 lung diesel engine. Another test to add to this is get a can of fogging spray if you don't already have some, and fog the cylinder after the first compression test, then compression test again. If the compression comes up after this fogging test then we can know that it is a low compression issue, related to improper run in procedure, or bore glazing, or polishing. Then the only fix is likely cylinder honing and new ring set.

The last option is just live with it, and replace the starter a little more often.

Lloyd


__________________

__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 06:25   #33
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,423
Images: 25
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simister View Post
When I have left the boat for about a month it would take about 20 - 30 seconds for the engine to start. As HyLyte said it does seem like an eternity. I certainly don't want to be chasing gremlins if it is not necessary. If this is normal and is not a malfunction with the system then I am quite happy to live with it.

On one occasion after leaving the boat for a month, I bled the fuel system at the injector before starting, to try and eliminate possible air in the lines. I cracked the nut at the injector and ran the fuel pump, without starting the engine, to bleed the lines. This made no difference at all and it still took around 20 cranks to start.


John
John--

For what its worth I went throught the same rubbish with our Panda to no good end. If it's not used for awhile, it will take a while to start. I did the air-bubbles in the fuel lines check, the compression check etc. etc. etc. and came up empty handed (thankfully I suppose) after much effort. As the machine always did start eventually, I quit worrying about it for the most part. For what its worth, the Owners' Manual includes an admonishment that one should not hold down the start button for more than 20 seconds at a time after which one should let the starter "rest" (cool?) for a few minutes--which implies that, at times, starting may be somewhat delayed. (My own concern was pumping to much cooling water into the water-lift muffler sytem and flooding the cyclinder through the cooling injection port but, of course, that has never happened.)

Despite my feeling that this is a non-issue, I have sent a message to Panda with an inquiry and I will post the response as soon as I have it.

Regards,

/s/ Scott

PS: Interesting that you are sailing a First 42. So are we albeit quite older than yours I suspect. Where do you have your generator? Ours is in the starboard cockpit sail locker, which make it very easy to reach/service tho' it does steal room from our sail storage.
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 06:55   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 13
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Simister,

Feel free to call 954-462-2800 or email service(at)fischerpanda.com our service department and they will be able to help you out.

If it is light loading just as Flying Cloud said you might be able to heat the engine up and clear the cylinder out.

Jeff Till
Fischer Panda USA
__________________
Jeff Till is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 07:04   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 13
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Simister,
One more thing, if it is taking 20-30 seconds to start make sure you close the seacock until it starts to avoid filling the engine with water.

Jeff Till
Fischer Panda USA
__________________
Jeff Till is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 07:24   #36
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Till View Post
Simister,
One more thing, if it is taking 20-30 seconds to start make sure you close the seacock until it starts to avoid filling the engine with water.

Jeff Till
Fischer Panda USA
There we have it... keep an eye on that Scot, the vibes you felt about that are real.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 16:58   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Beneteau First 42s7
Posts: 41
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
John--

For what its worth I went throught the same rubbish with our Panda to no good end. If it's not used for awhile, it will take a while to start. I did the air-bubbles in the fuel lines check, the compression check etc. etc. etc. and came up empty handed (thankfully I suppose) after much effort. As the machine always did start eventually, I quit worrying about it for the most part. For what its worth, the Owners' Manual includes an admonishment that one should not hold down the start button for more than 20 seconds at a time after which one should let the starter "rest" (cool?) for a few minutes--which implies that, at times, starting may be somewhat delayed. (My own concern was pumping to much cooling water into the water-lift muffler sytem and flooding the cyclinder through the cooling injection port but, of course, that has never happened.)

Despite my feeling that this is a non-issue, I have sent a message to Panda with an inquiry and I will post the response as soon as I have it.

Regards,

/s/ Scott

PS: Interesting that you are sailing a First 42. So are we albeit quite older than yours I suspect. Where do you have your generator? Ours is in the starboard cockpit sail locker, which make it very easy to reach/service tho' it does steal room from our sail storage.
Hi Scott,

Yes I agree. I don't want to be chasing gremlins when it is not necessary.

I purchased my 42s7 in 1997 and have had it since new. I also have the genset in the starboard sail locker. The boat has been very reliable and is powered by a Volvo 50 hp. I live in Melbourne but fly up to Brisbane once a month. It has very good access to the Barrier Reef.

John
__________________
Simister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 17:01   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Beneteau First 42s7
Posts: 41
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Till View Post
Simister,
One more thing, if it is taking 20-30 seconds to start make sure you close the seacock until it starts to avoid filling the engine with water.

Jeff Till
Fischer Panda USA
Thanks Jeff and Scott,

Very good tip. I was not aware of the potential problem. I will certainly close the sea cock on the first start after being away from the boat.

Also thanks guys for all your advice and help.

John
__________________
Simister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 18:03   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Houston, Tx
Boat: Hunter 41 DS
Posts: 1
Check your eternal fuel filter I.e. racor for air leakage. if your racor has the bolt that goes through it be suspect. new racor design has omitted the bolt and doesn't leak air. know this from same problem with my panda 6kw gen set in a new boat from the manufacturer.
__________________
Solace41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 19:08   #40
Mooderator
 
capngeo's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,211
Images: 12
Send a message via Yahoo to capngeo Send a message via Skype™ to capngeo
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

In reading the thread I've seen several perfectly valid points made... BUT, I have to go with the compression folks after suffering a very similar symptom on a Westerbeke.

I diagnosed the problem by pulling the injectors and squirting a few drops of oil in each cylinder, then while the injectors were out, I hand cranked a few revs to spread the oil. The engine fired on the first stroke, even after several weeks of inactivity. Fast forward another couple weeks of inactivity; I got the same hard start.
__________________
Any fool with a big enough checkbook can BUY a boat; it takes a SPECIAL type of fool to build his own! -Capngeo
capngeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 19:11   #41
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,423
Images: 25
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
There we have it... keep an eye on that Scot, the vibes you felt about that are real.

cheers,
Nick.
Attached is the response I received from Jeff at Panda:

Quote:
Thanks for all your help I saw the thread this morning and left a reply. I did speak briefly to Bob about it and he said it sounds like it is losing prime but he will respond to you shortly.

Jeff Till
Vehicle and Marine Sales Representative
Fischer Panda Generators
Office:954-462-2800
Cell:954-849-5120
www.fischerpanda.com


From: s/vHyLyte
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:38 AM
To: Jeff Till; Robert M Grubert
Subject: Panda Starting Question

Jeff/Robert--

I sent this off yesterday but for some reason it bounced back-- N'any case, there is a discussion on CruisersForum pertaining to the time required to start the engine after an extended period of non-use (i.e. several weeks).

On HyLyte, we find that after a couple of weeks on non-use, when starting it may take 15 seconds or so before the engine kicks over. By comparison, if we start the engine every few days or so, she fires up within 3-5 seconds, if that. I would think the foregoing is a normal aspect of the device and nothing unusual but, for the sake of the discussion--and to avoid more Panda Bashing, you might want to address the issue.

Regards,

/s/ Scott
In light of the foregoing my original hypothesis is completely disproved and the issue may be a fuel prime issue although an awful lot of Panda owners seem to have a similar issue. No worries, Nick, I shall keep a close count on my hypopotymuses and, should I get past 15 I will surely close down the raw water intake (tho' I hate the idea of potentially shreading an impellor vane running dry as blowing out the heat exchanger to get the shreaded parts out is a serious pain in the butt. Been there, Done That; Got the T-Shirt). Thus far, however, I've not gotten past about 10 or 12.

FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 19:24   #42
Registered User
 
svHyLyte's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 42
Posts: 3,423
Images: 25
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simister View Post
Hi Scott,

Yes I agree. I don't want to be chasing gremlins when it is not necessary.

I purchased my 42s7 in 1997 and have had it since new. I also have the genset in the starboard sail locker. The boat has been very reliable and is powered by a Volvo 50 hp. I live in Melbourne but fly up to Brisbane once a month. It has very good access to the Barrier Reef.

John
John--

See my prior post, above. I was "wrong" tho' I don't think this is a gremlin worth chasing down (at least at this point).

Ah...the '97 42s7. Lovely, fast yacht, without the pinched IOR butt. I do envy that and your cruising area. I have dreamed of sailing the east coast of Oz since Eric and Susan Hiscock described their adventures there in "Around the World in Wanderer III". (We have an autographed copy, signed in 1970 when they stopped at Sausalito on their subsequent cruise in Wanderer IV.) Have you considered the Sydney/Hobart? That yacht sails like a witch and should do well and Tasmania would be a wonderful place for a cruise afterward, no?

If you ever wish to do a sail on the Gulf Coast of Florida, send us a PM.

Cheers,

/s/ Scott
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the Sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 17:22   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Beneteau First 42s7
Posts: 41
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
John--

See my prior post, above. I was "wrong" tho' I don't think this is a gremlin worth chasing down (at least at this point).

Ah...the '97 42s7. Lovely, fast yacht, without the pinched IOR butt. I do envy that and your cruising area. I have dreamed of sailing the east coast of Oz since Eric and Susan Hiscock described their adventures there in "Around the World in Wanderer III". (We have an autographed copy, signed in 1970 when they stopped at Sausalito on their subsequent cruise in Wanderer IV.) Have you considered the Sydney/Hobart? That yacht sails like a witch and should do well and Tasmania would be a wonderful place for a cruise afterward, no?

If you ever wish to do a sail on the Gulf Coast of Florida, send us a PM.

Cheers,

/s/ Scott

Hi Scott,

Yes, the sailing is very nice on the Queensland coast. However, the weather here in the last week has been very cold and windy - quite unusual for this area. No I haven't done the Sydney to Hobart as I only cruise my boat and don't race it - mainly my wife and myself.

Tasmania has some very good cruising. When I had the boat in Melbourne I sailed down to Tasmania often. There is also some rugged islands in Bass Straight which are also quite beautiful and provide some very good anchorages.

If I come across to Florida I will certainly contact you.

John
__________________
Simister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2012, 03:07   #44
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: Fischer Panda 4.5 kva ac Genset

Dockhead,

Is this really a good quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
"A fully run-in engine is unlikely to suffer bore glazing, provided that its sump is filled with the recommended lubricant. Piston rings in an engine that has run for about 100 hours will conform well to the bores, limiting blow-by and oil consumption. An engine with less than these hours should never be run at light load for long periods, as is typically done for yacht battery charging. In the middle part of its life, glazing is less likely while the bores remain in good condition, although as wear increases its likelihood will increase. However, bore polishing is always a possibility with light loading. The solution is always to load the engine when battery charging, by driving the propeller. An engine that is driving the boat will never suffer from either glazing or polishing, even if it is at anchor or on a mooring.
???


WhaT is this professional really saying???

Any resolve for the OP, or 2nd fiddle???


Lloyd




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm not saying your wrong -- I know that this opinion exists, and I am not knowledgeable enough about diesels (unfortunately; am trying to correct this) to feel very certain about my opinion. But neither of your links says anything about this -- one is about breaking in a diesel engine, and the other is about oil changes.

This is the most convincing thing I have read about the issue: Bore glazing

This guy is a very serious engineer who contributes to Yachting Monthly over here. He writes:

"A fully run-in engine is unlikely to suffer bore glazing, provided that its sump is filled with the recommended lubricant. Piston rings in an engine that has run for about 100 hours will conform well to the bores, limiting blow-by and oil consumption. An engine with less than these hours should never be run at light load for long periods, as is typically done for yacht battery charging. In the middle part of its life, glazing is less likely while the bores remain in good condition, although as wear increases its likelihood will increase. However, bore polishing is always a possibility with light loading. The solution is always to load the engine when battery charging, by driving the propeller. An engine that is driving the boat will never suffer from either glazing or polishing, even if it is at anchor or on a mooring.

Yanmar's workshop manual suggests that after two hours of low-speed operation their engines should be revved in neutral to maximum speed in about five bursts, to clear out carbon deposits. They also suggest that periodical operation under full power while underway will benefit the engine, for similar reasons."

So I haven't found anything which suggests that a diesel engine will fly apart if you load it at less than 80%. Kohler don't say it, and Yanmar don't say it. It seems to me that any load adequate to keep up temperature in the cylinders is enough. And according to this guy, it is extremely important not to use the wrong type of oil -- that is, a synthetic or too high a grade.

Getting back to the OP's question, surely 50% load on a marine genset is perfectly adequate.
__________________

__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:56.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.