Firefly Oasis Carbon Foam AGM Batteries

[Journeyman]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

If using return amps for defining 100% the ranges for a full AGM vary from about 0.3% of Ah capacity at absorption to 0.5% of Ah capacity at absorption voltage.

East Penn
Odyssey
Northstar
0.3% at absorption voltage is 100% SOC (100Ah battery = 0.3A at 14.4V - 14.7V)

Lifeline
0.5% at absorption voltage (100Ah battery = 0.5A at 14.4V)

Mainesail,

Actually Odyssey/NorthStar require 0.001C10
From Technical Manual Sept 2016

Crazy, huh? What is full charge is an interesting debate (at least to battery nerds)

[hellosailor]

Mainesail?
"PSOC walk down does not mean this capacity loss is permanent, just that sulfate has formed and is not allowing the same amount of "usable" energy to be stored in the battery at the same charge rate and duration as the cycle before."
Wouldn't this indicate that we are all being distracted byissues like high-amperage 100% charging, when the real solution is to pay attention to desulfating? Which in turn means looking again at concepts like high-frequency pulsing, perhaps at higher voltages than are normally used in obsolete 3 or 4 stage charging, and crossing the line into equalization, and in general, re-examining the conventional simplistic charging strategies?
Since microprocessors and MPPT systems can vary voltage and amperage and frequency on the fly and about as easily as flipping a light switch...Perhaps it is time to examine the real factors and some novel (or at least, not currently accepted) ideas about how charging should be done in the first place.
Oh, and the feds are looking at a zinc-manganse battery chemistry that everyone thought would be useless fifty years ago. Except, now they've tweaked some of the molecular issues, and their quiet murmurs are that IF it works out, lithium will be a has-been as well. FWIW. (There's a shortage of news on the topic, so don't place any bets yet.)

[Journeyman]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Mainesail?
"PSOC walk down does not mean this capacity loss is permanent, just that sulfate has formed and is not allowing the same amount of "usable" energy to be stored in the battery at the same charge rate and duration as the cycle before."
Wouldn't this indicate that we are all being distracted byissues like high-amperage 100% charging, when the real solution is to pay attention to desulfating? Which in turn means looking again at concepts like high-frequency pulsing, perhaps at higher voltages than are normally used in obsolete 3 or 4 stage charging, and crossing the line into equalization, and in general, re-examining the conventional simplistic charging strategies?
Since microprocessors and MPPT systems can vary voltage and amperage and frequency on the fly and about as easily as flipping a light switch...Perhaps it is time to examine the real factors and some novel (or at least, not currently accepted) ideas about how charging should be done in the first place.
Oh, and the feds are looking at a zinc-manganse battery chemistry that everyone thought would be useless fifty years ago. Except, now they've tweaked some of the molecular issues, and their quiet murmurs are that IF it works out, lithium will be a has-been as well. FWIW. (There's a shortage of news on the topic, so don't place any bets yet.)

Hellosailor,

My understanding is frequency pulsing has turned out to be a boondoggle. So it would seem there's not much to build on there.

As regards that new battery teaser from the feds, bear in mind there are currently around 75 development stage battery companies/technologies circling and barking as the next best thing. But since it takes around $500M to get a viable production manufacturing line going, these "promising" technologies are unlikely to get out of the lab. Elon Musk's Gigafactory is being funded at $5 billion. Winner. Continuing incremental improvements to Li-Ion seems to be the near term viable future.

[Journeyman]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Mainesail?
"PSOC walk down does not mean this capacity loss is permanent, just that sulfate has formed and is not allowing the same amount of "usable" energy to be stored in the battery at the same charge rate and duration as the cycle before."
Wouldn't this indicate that we are all being distracted byissues like high-amperage 100% charging, when the real solution is to pay attention to desulfating? Which in turn means looking again at concepts like high-frequency pulsing, perhaps at higher voltages than are normally used in obsolete 3 or 4 stage charging, and crossing the line into equalization, and in general, re-examining the conventional simplistic charging strategies?
Since microprocessors and MPPT systems can vary voltage and amperage and frequency on the fly and about as easily as flipping a light switch...Perhaps it is time to examine the real factors and some novel (or at least, not currently accepted) ideas about how charging should be done in the first place.
Oh, and the feds are looking at a zinc-manganse battery chemistry that everyone thought would be useless fifty years ago. Except, now they've tweaked some of the molecular issues, and their quiet murmurs are that IF it works out, lithium will be a has-been as well. FWIW. (There's a shortage of news on the topic, so don't place any bets yet.)

Hellosailor,

My understanding is frequency pulsing has turned out to be a boondoggle. So it would seem there's not much to build on there.

As regards that new battery teaser from the feds, bear in mind there are currently around 75 development stage battery companies/technologies circling and barking as the next best thing. But since it takes around $500M to get a viable production manufacturing line going, these "promising" technologies are unlikely to get out of the lab. Elon Musk's Gigafactory is being funded at $5 billion. Winner. Continuing incremental improvements to Li-Ion seems to be the near term viable future.

[hellosailor]

I felt the same way about the "desulphators" in general, but the phrase "Die Vampire, Die!" keeps coming to mind. And from more reputable sources, I was told that simply using pulsed DC instead of pure DC, can make a battery charge faster, as a higher absorption rate. Apparently pure DC causes continuous heating where the electrolyte hits the plates, which causes microbubbles, which in turn are "boiling" the electrolyte and raising the resistance (gas instead of all fluid), while pulsed DC can apply more power, and the shorter duration pulses allow the electrolyte to move around and remain cooler overall.<P>
In that context, maybe there's at least one frequency range and voltage point that would successfully break down sulfation without causing other harm. Like the difference between a kazoo and a flute: They're both "the same" but the little differences count.
Or, presumably, the "carbon foam" in the Firefly AGMs is preventing the sulphates from becoming fixed. How long did it take before anyone suspected, or ran across, that idea?
There's just something subtle going on, that has to be causing some of these differences. It certainly seems to elude most of us.

[canyonbat]

It has been over a year since this thread. Any two year test results on the Firefly batteries? I will post a new thread as well.

[cha0s]

I installed 2 on my boat to run refrigeration. Within 2 months one had completely broken down and can not be recharged. They were being run down to 25% (ie 75% discharged) but they are supposed to be able to do this. Anyway I am glad I didn't buy more. They proved to be no better than regular agm's and no cheaper. A bit lighter as you need less of them in theory but only if you discharge them further.

[ErikFinn]

Originally Posted by cha0s

I installed 2 on my boat to run refrigeration. Within 2 months one had completely broken down and can not be recharged. They were being run down to 25% (ie 75% discharged) but they are supposed to be able to do this. Anyway I am glad I didn't buy more. They proved to be no better than regular agm's and no cheaper. A bit lighter as you need less of them in theory but only if you discharge them further.

Well that is shocking to learn, sorry to hear about your misfortune. I have no personal experience but was under the impression that the Fireflies were good if not excellent batteries. This certainly throws that one to the bin.

They claim: "Depths of Discharge to 80%-100% of rated capacity without any loss of performance"

https://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced...asis-group-31/

Glad I haven't bought Fireflies. I'll continue to use the golf cart bats. Not perfect but no nasty surprices either.

[phantomracer]

time is going to tell on how well they last. Any man made product will have defective units here and there. I had 2 bad balmar 614 regulators. 3rd one is the charm! I heard firefly did have a bad batch of batteries before. unsure how many units it was, but it happens.

I have killed more wet cells and AGMs myself, albeit, over a longer period of time than I have had the firefly batteries. If they can make it to 4 years and they are still performing well, I will be thrilled. I expect to get a LOT more time than that based on the marketing material.

I am optimistic!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by cha0s

I installed 2 on my boat to run refrigeration. Within 2 months one had completely broken down and can not be recharged. They were being run down to 25% (ie 75% discharged) but they are supposed to be able to do this. Anyway I am glad I didn't buy more. They proved to be no better than regular agm's and no cheaper. A bit lighter as you need less of them in theory but only if you discharge them further.

How long ago was this? Do you know if your Batts were part of the group that had known manufacturing problems?

[canyonbat]

Originally Posted by phantomracer

time is going to tell on how well they last. Any man made product will have defective units here and there. I had 2 bad balmar 614 regulators. 3rd one is the charm! I heard firefly did have a bad batch of batteries before. unsure how many units it was, but it happens.

I have killed more wet cells and AGMs myself, albeit, over a longer period of time than I have had the firefly batteries. If they can make it to 4 years and they are still performing well, I will be thrilled. I expect to get a LOT more time than that based on the marketing material.

I am optimistic!

How long have yours been in?

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by cha0s

I installed 2 on my boat to run refrigeration. Within 2 months one had completely broken down and can not be recharged. They were being run down to 25% (ie 75% discharged) but they are supposed to be able to do this. Anyway I am glad I didn't buy more. They proved to be no better than regular agm's and no cheaper. A bit lighter as you need less of them in theory but only if you discharge them further.

You simply had a defective battery, perhaps a bad vent.. These batteries will absolutely take that sort of abuse, without even breaking a sweat..

You should have contacted, or may still want to contact, the dealer you purchased them through and do so immediately. They have been exceptional about replacing any defective batteries and they stand behind the product very, very well.

The battery that was used in the 2015 (made in 2014) Practical Sailor PSOC testing is still going strong and I have ABUSED the living $hit out of it, purposely.

It has been to 0% SOC, for capacity testing, no less than 30-35 times now and I can't even begin to count how many times to 80% DOD.. It also sat at 11.7V/20% SOC in a very hot garden shed for 4 months and even after that it fully recovered all of its capacity. Last winter it sat on-board my own boat, uncharged at 12.0V, for the entire winter. In the spring I charged it, cycled it to 0% SOC/10.5V then recharged and re-cycled to 11.7V then recharged and capacity tested it. The damn battery came in at 100% of its original Ah capacity. I have not tested it since last spring because it is still on the boat. The highest charge voltage since the last Ah capacity test point has been 13.9V because I decided to test it as a reserve bank to our LiFePO4 battery which has a peak charge voltage of 13.9V.

I have yet to see any of my customers Firefly batteries not recover PSOC use and be able deliver full Ah capacity or within a 1% margin.

Some of the tested batteries went in back in 2015 and one bank just came off testing a few weeks ago at 100%. One customer is on a mooring with only an alternator, the definition of PSOC abuse. He cruises from May to October and rarely get the batteries above 85% SOC. He is cycling them to 11.7V. His batteries also delivered full capacity back in late October..

It's not all roses however as I did have one bank with defective vents. Frustrating, but it happens. The good news is that Firefly replaced them without issue. Two months of 75% DOD cycling, for a Firefly, is like Mike Tyson lifting a feather. Barely breaking a sweat.

[hellosailor]

As Maine says.
Pretty much everything comes with a guarantee (at least I'm not likely to buy anything without one) and a product failure means nothing, until you've contacted the maker and gotten their response on that.

I've known to be very generous, even saying outright "Well, THAT shouldn't have happened, where can we send the new one?"

When SONY invented the Trinitron color TV's, they shocked the entire electronics industry. Every individual part was tested before assembly. Then each board, each sub-assembly was tested. Finally, each TV was tested before it was boxed and shipped. Three full levels of 100% QC testing. Which meant that you paid a lot of money (twice the price of anything else) for a Trinitron, but you never got one that was DOA. Unlike some one brands, including a (now reputable one) that delivered 3 DOA's before #4 to my friend. #4 worked for twenty years, it was a bargain. Eventually.

Batteries, despite the chances for consumer abuse, pretty much all come with a warranty. Even if shipping expenses can make that pointless at times.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As Maine says.
Pretty much everything comes with a guarantee (at least I'm not likely to buy anything without one) and a product failure means nothing, until you've contacted the maker and gotten their response on that.

I've known to be very generous, even saying outright "Well, THAT shouldn't have happened, where can we send the new one?"

When SONY invented the Trinitron color TV's, they shocked the entire electronics industry. Every individual part was tested before assembly. Then each board, each sub-assembly was tested. Finally, each TV was tested before it was boxed and shipped. Three full levels of 100% QC testing. Which meant that you paid a lot of money (twice the price of anything else) for a Trinitron, but you never got one that was DOA. Unlike some one brands, including a (now reputable one) that delivered 3 DOA's before #4 to my friend. #4 worked for twenty years, it was a bargain. Eventually.

Batteries, despite the chances for consumer abuse, pretty much all come with a warranty. Even if shipping expenses can make that pointless at times.

and its a pretty decent warranty. 6 years : 24 months non-prorated, 48 prorated.

[phantomracer]

Originally Posted by canyonbat

How long have yours been in?

2 seasons so far