Electrons, Electricity and Energy

[StringBimini]

I think the "force" you are referring to is electromotive force, i.e. the flow of "electrons" generates an electromagnetic field, and this drives the motor. There is an electromagnetic field generated in the coil, but the details I would need to look up to go much further. Work is extracted, and in doing so, the chemical potential of the battery is reduced, via a chemical reaction (i.e. to a lower energy state). Of course we can renew this potential by recharging the battery. Hope this helps. While it is analogous to a mechanical energy balance, a la Bernouli, it is not the same thing. And you are correct that to our knowledge, mass+energy is conserved.

[Bergovoy]

Originally Posted by Morganministry

That depens on the current. Might be enough to mess with a compass. If you look at an electro magnet it has a coil of wire in it. If you seperate the loops in the coil, the magnetism is still there, just not as strong. As you pull it apart further, the magnetism goes down even more but is still there. As you pull the wire straight, the magnetism still goes down, But it is still there.

Scott

hang on, I might have to call you on this one...if the conductor is a straight wire, (no coil), andit has current flowing thru it, and you are saying it gives off a magnetic field, i would have to disagree...

is the current direct current? or AC?

If it is AC, then yes, you will get the same magnetic field as if the 'coil' had one loop...

so, hang on, did i just contradict myself? let me read... um, why, yes, i did... hmmm

i hate that


sorry

[Bergovoy]

Originally Posted by StringBimini

I think the "force" you are referring to is electromotive force, i.e. the flow of "electrons" generates an electromagnetic field, and this drives the motor. There is an electromagnetic field generated in the coil, but the details I would need to look up to go much further. Work is extracted, and in doing so, the chemical potential of the battery is reduced, via a chemical reaction (i.e. to a lower energy state). Of course we can renew this potential by recharging the battery. Hope this helps. While it is analogous to a mechanical energy balance, a la Bernouli, it is not the same thing. And you are correct that to our knowledge, mass+energy is conserved.

the actual result of a motor turning is not 'extracting' work... or reducing the potential of the battery...if the motor was efficent, completely, the motor would run forever.. it woiuld be perpetual motion.. what the problem is the friction, and the resistance of the conductors...

and this is shown / observed by way of heat... that is 'wasted' energy... we dont want heat, but we get it as a side affect...

so, if we want to limit the discussion to 'real world', then fine, but again, we can replace the 'potential' of the battery by way of recharging it... and it takes energy to replace energy... which is not efficient, unless we are using solar methods... but typically, running a house or a boat on a gas/fuel generator, is relatively expensive. but, from what i can tell, boaters are really good at conserving and using minimal amounts of electricty... LED lighting, etc... but if you had to run a house off a gas generator, your 'electric' bill, (the gas to operate the generator) would be way more then the electric company supplying you with electricity...

[chala]

Originally Posted by Morganministry

That depens on the current. Might be enough to mess with a compass.
Scott

In an ac installation it can be strong enough to burn down the premises. Welcome to induction where electricity part with fluid mechanic. So what can be done to obviate that problem?

[Srah 1953]

As the original postee, thank you all again, most sincerely. I hadn't thought when I originally askied the question that it would give rise to such interesting and varied responses.


I am tempted to say, a la Don Rumsfeld – There are known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns and then there is electricity! Or PFM, as described.


But no, I do feel that I have a much better, if still incomplete, understanding of the source of the electric energy at the load. It would clearly tempt fate to spell out what I understand it to be.... but what the hell …. (in the DC system of particular interest) the movement of electrons is the source but it does it in two different ways: for a load like a light bulb the movement of the electrons is restricted and so gives rise to heat and light and for a load like a motor the movement of the electrons influences magnets and one ends up in the area of electro-magnetism (which needs further study).


Back to dark matter …................

I like the modern theory of multiple universes in which I also exist and in one at least I am a much better sailor, fearless, endowed with superhuman strength and knowledge and own a 60 ft HR....

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by chala

How minute?

The "right hand rule" applies.

[Bergovoy]

Originally Posted by Srah 1953

Back to dark matter …................

I like the modern theory of multiple universes in which I also exist and in one at least I am a much better sailor, fearless, endowed with superhuman strength and knowledge and own a 60 ft HR....

floating on a sea of electrons, with a brite blue hue!!!

[chala]

Originally Posted by Bergovoy

the actual result of a motor turning is not 'extracting' work... or reducing the potential of the battery...if the motor was efficent, completely, the motor would run forever.. it woiuld be perpetual motion..
what the problem is the friction, and the resistance of the conductors...

?
If no current no magnetism. So there must be some current I
Current requires a difference of potential V
Perpetual means time t
IVt =

Originally Posted by Morganministry

The joke about gravity earlier is relevant to the original post. It is that force of attraction that makes motors work.

?
So no gravity, no electrical motors?

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

The "right hand rule" applies.

Fleming’s right hand rule (generator), left hand, thumb, corkscrew (where corkscrew are common) etc are more about finding the direction of induced e.m.f. or in which direction the line of forces act.

Originally Posted by GordMay

If you found the above illuminating, I'd ask you to pay it forward by explaining "the meaning of life", for me.

I can point you to someone who knows, the humble cockatoo (Garuda for some).

I also found Salt Water as a Power Source? an enjoyable reading.

[Bergovoy]

again, the theorietical worlld.. not real world..

think of having aan old rusty motor and how it will take more energy to make it rotate, and then clean it up replace all the bushings, and increase the wire size and reduce resistance, it will take less energy..

extend that to an UBER efficient motor needing next to nothing to operate...

[GordMay]

Scientists have described four different kinds of forces in nature:
Electromagnetic (magnetic and electric forces are considered to be different aspects of the same force)
Strong Nuclear
Weak Nuclear
Gravity

An electric motor utilizes electromagnetic forces, not gravitation, to operate.

[Blue Stocking]

--- and the grayed and respected seer gathered before him the unwashed, unshaven, keenly interested, slightly interested, totally disinterested, and a few passers-by, and with great gravity of face,and deep energy resonant in his voice, proclaimed with a magnetism which kept all eyes glued to his " this thread may wonder in the wilderness for a hell of a long time"
Many leapt to their feet, and left in dis-illusionment. I, having infinite faith in the wisdom of my fellow cruisers will sit, and wait eons for enlightenment.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Bergovoy

increase the wire size and reduce resistance, it will take less energy..

Increasing the wire size, which is in fact using a bigger motor than required, will rarely take less energy. Losses in DC machine mainly consist of friction, windage and other losses. The term “other losses” comprises copper losses, iron losses, magnetic leakage. Permanent-magnet field is a better way of improving the efficiency of a DC motor and common.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Scientists have described four different kinds of forces in nature:
Electromagnetic (magnetic and electric forces are considered to be different aspects of the same force)
Strong Nuclear
Weak Nuclear
Gravity

An electric motor utilizes electromagnetic forces, not gravitation, to operate.

Number 5.... Pheremone/testosterone.... known to have obliterated a whole city/people..

[Bergovoy]

the wire size i was referring to was the feeder wires from the voltage source to the 'motor' or other device.

increasing that feeder wire will reduce the resistance between the battery and the motor, allowing more current to be used by the motor..

and yes, gravity does in fact play a part on motors as that will cause the stator to make more contact on the bearines and brushes and everything on teh bottom, rather then equally suspended... i.e. increases friction

and yes, boatman has identified the biggest forces in the world

[Morganministry]

Originally Posted by chala

?
So no gravity, no electrical motors?

What I was getting at was the "force" of attraction is what caused to motor to turn. Trying to make something complex a little easier to under stand.

Scott