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Old 22-12-2010, 17:47   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
Hey Don, when you get a few minutes, give us a quick explanation of why gravity exists--and what is it?

to keep asses from floating out to space
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Old 22-12-2010, 22:16   #17
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Originally Posted by Srah 1953 View Post
Thank you all for the replies. I did understand that energy can't be destroyed and also, separately, that all electrical books and articles that I've read are very fond of water analogies. But it is this "electrical energy" that Don refers to that the electrons, presumably, are "carrying" that I was trying to understand.
My partner gives out to me that I always want to know why something does what it does. Driving the boat in reverse, she knows turn the wheel to one direction and the boat will go in that direction (prop walk, wind and current allowing), whereas I can only do it when I've figured out how the wheel turns the rudder, how the water hits the rudder and.... oh sh~~ i've crashed...
Is this more what you're looking for?

Make a big loop of wire. Move a magnet near one section of the wire and you will cause electrons to move. Those electons bunch up against electrons further down the wire, they repel each other and so forth down the line. The other side of the section of wire near the magnet, the electrons are more sparse and the electrons fill that gap. The energy comes from something moving the magnet by: water falling, burning coal, etc. So the electrons don't have energy in themselves that you're using up, they are repelling each other transferring the energy. When you put a poor conductor, a resistor, in the wire somewhere, the electrons are repelling electrons that don't want to move easily, making their atoms move (vibrate), which is heat, or you can find other ways to use it.

In a battery the energy comes from chemicals achieving a lower energy state in a reaction that involves transfer of electrons.

See the electrical energy section.
Forms of Energy
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Old 23-12-2010, 04:53   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
to keep asses from floating out to space
Don,

Hope you didn't interpret my post as a sign of ridicule. It was intended as a tounge-in-cheek acknowledgement of your willingness to explain one of our "mysteries".
I always read with interest, posts you and others make, on the more tec hnical subjects.
Er go, my gravity comment
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Old 23-12-2010, 06:10   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Stocking View Post
Hey Don, when you get a few minutes, give us a quick explanation of why gravity exists--and what is it?
As long as you will be explaining gravity could you add a bit on weak and strong forces?
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Old 23-12-2010, 06:19   #20
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Even in the enrgy world there are have's and have-not's. The energy world is very moral and the have's have a strong code of giving to the have-not's. But the have-not's waste a lot of what is given to them and it becomes just hot air so they remain have-not's!

See the energy world is a lot like us, except it tries harder to keep helping out the have-not's!
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Old 23-12-2010, 07:12   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Even in the enrgy world there are have's and have-not's. The energy world is very moral and the have's have a strong code of giving to the have-not's. But the have-not's waste a lot of what is given to them and it becomes just hot air so they remain have-not's!

See the energy world is a lot like us, except it tries harder to keep helping out the have-not's!
Wow Don that was good. That almost explains it better (layman's terms) than any other post so far.

In electrical situations the energy that we use comes from the movement of electrons. Moving electrons have an effect on the environment around them. Try to "push" and "pull" them through an area of resistance and they cause heat. Run them through a coil of wire and they create a moving magnetic field that can spin a shaft and create a motor.

The joke about gravity earlier is relevant to the original post. It is that force of attraction that makes motors work.

Incidentally even a straight wire has a minute amount of electro magnetism.

Hope that helps.
You are right Don that is harder to write than it is to say.

Scott
ATA Degree .... Electronics technology
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Old 23-12-2010, 07:31   #22
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In the end its all really just PFM.
Ah yes, PFM. Back in the 80s, before the breakup of Ma Bell, I worked for AT&T. I was responsible for a database that contained information on every trouble ticket filed by every Bell company across the United States--some 30 million tickets per month.

After some time I discovered that the "resolution" column for almost 1/3rd of the closed tickets contained simply "PFM". I had to ask one of the old-time installer/repairmen just what "PFM" meant.

I have since realized that PFM is the resolution for about 1/3rd of ALL mechanical, electrical, and electronic problems in the world--not just those related to telephone repair.
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Old 23-12-2010, 10:39   #23
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Why do the British drink their beer warm? Because Lucas also makes refrigerators! Sorry, had some british sports cars in my past so I can sympathize!

My understanding is that electrons don't actually flow down a wire, like water flows down a hose. Rather, those little guys just jump atom to atom, creating holes along the way that are filled with another electron. Sort of like waves in the ocean. Water particles aren't moving laterally with the wave, but rather up and down.

Not that this has anything to do with the discussion at hand. Just a little tidbit I remember from college. But I must confess that I was a Mechanical Engineering major, and many of us just put up with those pesky electrical classes under duress because we had to to graduate!
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Old 23-12-2010, 20:54   #24
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ok, i will toss my hat into the ring..

water doesnt make electricty (in a water generator).. just like electrons dont do the actual 'work'..

water is converted into a different force when turning a turbine, the same is said for electrons when talking about 'turning a motor'...

the energyh is converted into magnetic 'energy'... (not lost)... and this magnetism pushes on a magnet that turns the motor.

just like taking two magnets and turning them north pole to north pole and pushing one magnet with another.

the electrons in the circuit will create the magnetic field and then return to the source, (the battery)... the battery 'shouldnt drain) under normal thinking, just like if there were pipes with water, the water volume would be a constant..

but in real world there is 'heat' generated and that is nothing more then the electrons being converted into another type of energy, heat / thermal energy...

so your battery needs to be recharged or you need to buy more electricity from the electric company to replace the 'lost' energy...

if we could create completely efficient devices we would need less electrons and 'less electricity'..

hopefully this helps???
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Old 23-12-2010, 20:57   #25
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you are mostly correct.

there arent really 'holes'... but rather the material, (copper in this case), easily shares electrons, and if they happen to share and end up with a litle extra number, then it is easy to shed it to be shared with the next...

but yea, it isnt like water flowing, BUT, electrons like light, and gas, follow the laws of fluid dynamics.. so it is easy to use similar analogies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wristwister View Post
Why do the British drink their beer warm? Because Lucas also makes refrigerators! Sorry, had some british sports cars in my past so I can sympathize!

My understanding is that electrons don't actually flow down a wire, like water flows down a hose. Rather, those little guys just jump atom to atom, creating holes along the way that are filled with another electron. Sort of like waves in the ocean. Water particles aren't moving laterally with the wave, but rather up and down.

Not that this has anything to do with the discussion at hand. Just a little tidbit I remember from college. But I must confess that I was a Mechanical Engineering major, and many of us just put up with those pesky electrical classes under duress because we had to to graduate!
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Old 23-12-2010, 21:18   #26
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Unless your going to become an academic you don't really need to know the theory to that depth. If you plan on working on the electrical system of anything you need some basic theory and a fair amount of practical experience and safe work habits. Get your hands dirty.
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Old 23-12-2010, 22:03   #27
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was once accused of electrickery,when we ran a cable across a road,so as to have free power.......does that count?
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Old 23-12-2010, 22:54   #28
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definitely agree, no need for the technical/advanced knowledge, but I kinda think the basics are needed so you can understand that heat is the 'enemy' it is a sign of inefficiency and or a warning that something isnt right...

making sure you have sufficiently sized wires to avoid heating/overheating is a good thing...having a motor that spins slower and produces the same result is a good thing...

all those things that are pretty much 'common sense' if and when thought about...
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Old 24-12-2010, 02:45   #29
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Agh yes PFM , I once asked a boeing engineer to explain how aircraft fly. PFM, PFM he said. Seemingly it powers/explains a lot of stuff
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Old 24-12-2010, 03:19   #30
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What if there was no such thing as energy? well they say it cant be created or destroyed, so how can it exist? hot cant do work without cold, fast cant do work without slow and so on.
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