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Old 03-06-2013, 17:27   #91
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Thanks Bluemoose, for a reasoned and nuanced piece of thinking.

Nevertheless there's a major difference between the philosophy you hold, and the one which I'm concerned is being exported to the rest of the world via movies and the internet.

You are clearly in favour of asking questions first and escalating the response to a violent one only once intent to steal is solidly established *

Whereas what I am primarily concerned about, and would categorise as 'cowboy behaviour', is shooting first and asking questions afterwards.

In terms of this thread, the notion that someone who has not knocked on the hull and waited to be invited aboard can be greeted with disabling or lethal force seems pretty squarely in the second category.

But what I'm really concerned about, and what moved me to post on this emotive issue: it seems to me that those who share ideas in public on the most efficient ways of doing that are assisting with the export of what you call 'rural American culture' to places where (to my way of thinking) it can only make things worse.

I could try to make the argument that the present situation in the US (which you eloquently describe as murderous) has already been made worse in that same way.
I could try to argue that murderous sub-culture is partly a long term society-wide consequence, evolving from a pioneer/rurally founded survival imperative, based on people asserting their rights as individuals as a first resort and using the rule of law as a last resort. But I don't know if that has merit, so I won't.
* (I feel a trifle queasy about the rigour with which bad intent is established, BTW, but I freely concede it's a difficult issue.
It becomes rather more difficult when you reposition yourself and your loved ones and your property abroad, where 'personal space' is not a universally cherished concept)
Actually, the murder rates in "rural American culture" areas of the country are lower than more "progressive" areas. Houston, for instance, is much safer per capita than Chicago. So I would hate for you to get the wrong impression of rural America. The "Cowboy" mentality does exist, but I think the name wrongs real cowboys. Most of America's problems are in urban violence, especially gang and drug related. Hollywood, well, it's Hollywood and they'll do anything for money out there...

That being said, I think a few game trail camera mounted 10' off the deck would be a better investment than the electric lifelines.
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:04   #92
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Unhappy Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

The PC world doesn't understand a bit of fun. Its a bit like the high voltage shock the kids get on a trampoline Maybe a bit stronger.
How would a Van der Graaf machine work? Fire up the lines with static electricity.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:35   #93
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

I my view , aggressive countermeasures that result in the death of a unwanted visitor, whose intentions are unknown, is a man-trap. Any Injury to the person by such a device carries a significant risk of litigation.

As was once said by a judge ( not in the US) . "One cannot kill a burglar simply because he is a burglar.". Hence violent response can only be justified once you are aware of the intent. (how you decide you are aware and to what level, I suppose is a decision for a jury)

But seriously folks, why sail there in the first place!!.

dave
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Old 04-06-2013, 16:08   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemoose View Post

Actually, the murder rates in "rural American culture" areas of the country are lower than more "progressive" areas. Houston, for instance, is much safer per capita than Chicago. So I would hate for you to get the wrong impression of rural America. .
The reasons for the Houston area having lower crime and murder rates are as a result of two totally different issues but both a result of the type of government in place. In Houston we much better prosperity and we also have the right to carry a firearm and defend ourselves.

Contrast to Chicago with a poor economy as a result of local politics added very restrictive self defense and firearm regulations.

The criminals in Chicago know odds are most citizens are unarmed and unable to defend themselves.

And as goboating said why go there in the first place. Well as our global economy keeps sliding into the tank more and more places are going to become violent. And with that they will see boaters as the "low hanging fruit" because they are most likely to be unarmed and unaware of how the legal system in that country works.

So yes 20 years ago it was easy to stay out of the rat holes but now its not so easy. And yes people are going to say crime is lower than it was 20 years ago and that's true. But it's also spreading to countries that never had a problem.
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Old 04-06-2013, 17:24   #95
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The reasons for the Houston area having lower crime and murder rates are as a result of two totally different issues but both a result of the type of government in place. In Houston we much better prosperity and we also have the right to carry a firearm and defend ourselves.

Contrast to Chicago with a poor economy as a result of local politics added very restrictive self defense and firearm regulations.

The criminals in Chicago know odds are most citizens are unarmed and unable to defend themselves.

And as goboating said why go there in the first place. Well as our global economy keeps sliding into the tank more and more places are going to become violent. And with that they will see boaters as the "low hanging fruit" because they are most likely to be unarmed and unaware of how the legal system in that country works.

So yes 20 years ago it was easy to stay out of the rat holes but now its not so easy. And yes people are going to say crime is lower than it was 20 years ago and that's true. But it's also spreading to countries that never had a problem.
Sorry , but your logic does not transfer to other countries , crime rates are low in many European countries , yet few citizens have access to ( or want ) firearms.

Hence your " truth" is not universal nor convincing.

Equally , " the world is going down the toilet " seems to be a peculiar phobia of the US right wing conservative gun orientated lobby. The need to continue RTBA debates by convincing people " the end is nigh" is puerile and rather transparent.

Today there are as many non-rat holes as there ever were , there is no evidence of a general descent into mayhem, one can sail to ones hearts content and never need to end up in a " rat hole "

It distresses me to see a domestic proclivity of the US transposed into the altogether far more benign world of sailors and cruising.

Dave
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:42   #96
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

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Originally Posted by bluemoose View Post
Actually, the murder rates in "rural American culture" areas of the country are lower than more "progressive" areas. Houston, for instance, is much safer per capita than Chicago. So I would hate for you to get the wrong impression of rural America. The "Cowboy" mentality does exist, but I think the name wrongs real cowboys. Most of America's problems are in urban violence, especially gang and drug related. Hollywood, well, it's Hollywood and they'll do anything for money out there...

That being said, I think a few game trail camera mounted 10' off the deck would be a better investment than the electric lifelines.

Much of Chicago's high crime/murder rate is gang-related. A TV show I saw last night interviewed a family with three generations of gang membership. Where I used to live, St. Louis, had a very high crime/murder rate at one time, and it was also gang-related. They got the gang problems under control and the numbers dropped.

Gang-related crime rarely affects people not involved with or living in close proximity to gang members, so just looking at the crime rate isn't enough to tell a person what they need to know about a city.
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Old 04-06-2013, 18:52   #97
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Dave my point is that the worlds economy is going down hill and no one disputes that. So totally taking guns out of the argument.

Most of the "nice and friendly" cruising destinations are like a marriage, everyone is happy and things good until there is money problems. As soon as the money starts hurting then the fights and unrest begin.

The people in those nice places we like to visit are all too nice when time are good. But when money is hard to come by and they realize the DSLR camera around you neck will get them enough money to EAT for several months they see you In a whole different light.

Just like having a boa constrictor as a pet. It's nice and docile when its well fed but as soon as it starts to starve it will bite the hand that once fed it.
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Old 04-06-2013, 19:14   #98
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

World economy going downhill??
In the west there's been a reduction in the excessive purchase of junk destined for landfill, true, but thats not the world economy.
House & boat prices now sensible - all good unless you borrowed too much
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Old 04-06-2013, 21:19   #99
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I my view , aggressive countermeasures that result in the death of a unwanted visitor, whose intentions are unknown, is a man-trap. Any Injury to the person by such a device carries a significant risk of litigation.

As was once said by a judge ( not in the US) . "One cannot kill a burglar simply because he is a burglar.". Hence violent response can only be justified once you are aware of the intent. (how you decide you are aware and to what level, I suppose is a decision for a jury)

But seriously folks, why sail there in the first place!!.

dave
If one has had any, violent or lethal countermeasure. If it was it would not be on sale.

Try one.
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Old 04-06-2013, 22:41   #100
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

OK, I started this post and let me tell you why. A friend of my recently had his two solar panels taken right off the stern of his boat in Honoria Harbor in the Solomons. Replacing them will take a long time and cost far more than they did when he bought them. There are no solar panel stores within hundreds of miles of where he is. These were primary to charging his batteries. Another had all the sheets and halyards taken right off his deck. Dinghies aren't normally stolen but 11 outboards were taken in a single night over Easter weekend two years ago in Moorea. Another friends boat was broken into in in Kirabati and all their computers, cameras and their sons toys were taken.

Yes, there are some places that we would consider safe out here but there is always someone that comes along and spoils it for others. People told me when I left the US 4 years ago that I had more reason to be concerned about theft from other cruisers than locals. So far, I've not found that to be true. The locals out here are wonderful but many of them see us as rich beyond their wildest dreams. We have "toys" that they could not even dream of and some feel that we can just replace them. Most of the cruisers I've met out here aren't rich, they just enjoy doing what they do--cruising. I've lost a few things off my deck but I tend to be careful. I've seen other that aren't.

I have motion sensors(sounds only) on deck and am considering adding some with lights. Electrifying my life lines would keep them off my boat. My first responsibility is to protect my wife, my self and my boat. Do I care what happens to the poor person that tries to come on board, sure. Would I want him to die? Of course not. I just want to make sure he stays off my boat. He's not invited and he sure isn't welcome. Some of you have suggested mounting cameras on deck. That's fine as long as you are awake to see them when they come on board in the middle of the night. Guns are pretty much out of the question as they are illegal in just about every country we have traveled to and far more trouble getting them accepted by the islands we have visited. At the worst, if circumstances would warrant, I'd use my flare gun.

I'm currently in Palau and plan to head for the Philippines. Some of the places we want to see are considered safe. But who knows. Bad people are all around the world. We just want to be prepared for what may come.
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Old 05-06-2013, 05:55   #101
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry , but your logic does not transfer to other countries , crime rates are low in many European countries , yet few citizens have access to ( or want ) firearms.

Hence your " truth" is not universal nor convincing.

Equally , " the world is going down the toilet " seems to be a peculiar phobia of the US right wing conservative gun orientated lobby. The need to continue RTBA debates by convincing people " the end is nigh" is puerile and rather transparent.

Today there are as many non-rat holes as there ever were , there is no evidence of a general descent into mayhem, one can sail to ones hearts content and never need to end up in a " rat hole "

It distresses me to see a domestic proclivity of the US transposed into the altogether far more benign world of sailors and cruising.

Dave
Dave,

Please leave the guns out of this thread. It will spiral down as always if we do. Non-US folks just don't understand, and that's ok. I shouldn't have to understand the UK Royals, or Europe's fear of GM foods. It just is. We all got here on different paths which have shaped us.

As to the view that "the end is nigh" and civilization is breaking down, please understand that a segment of the US is concerned with the breakdown of our civilization and the fundamental changes that are happening here. As to the the transposition of that breakdown to the rest of the world, I think that the global communications of today just makes it easer to see the "rat holes" than before.

It is also easy to use the rose colored glasses of our societies to view others. For instance, my sister the Gallophile, told me the classic of an American and a European looking at the same ad with a topless woman in a ski magazine. The American notices the nudity first; the European notices it last. These type of cultural filters allows each of us to view the negative aspects of the others culture through the filter of our own. Your view of us RTBA folks is tinted by your cultural filters. Much like my view of a 35 hour work weeks and taking August off in Europe (France?) makes me wonder how anything ever gets done. Add to that the fact that America has regional cultures that are rather diverse - Think Texas and New York, and well, I hope you get the picture. We just need to respect that other peoples hold their views for a reason other than their leaders have pulled the wool over their eyes...

So, back to the OP's topic:
1) 12v farm based electric fences are not lethal, but you would need to string positive and negative lines rather than rely on a ground in a GRP boat
2) There is a concern about visitors and emergency personnel - signs and informing a harbor master might be in order.
3) You may have legal issues - check with a lawyer if you plan to rig this.
4) This solution is not for everyone.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:17   #102
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Re: electrified lifelines(on purpose)

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Originally Posted by mestrezat View Post
OK, I started this post and let me tell you why. A friend of my recently had his two solar panels taken right off the stern of his boat in Honoria Harbor in the Solomons. Replacing them will take a long time and cost far more than they did when he bought them. There are no solar panel stores within hundreds of miles of where he is. These were primary to charging his batteries. Another had all the sheets and halyards taken right off his deck. Dinghies aren't normally stolen but 11 outboards were taken in a single night over Easter weekend two years ago in Moorea. Another friends boat was broken into in in Kirabati and all their computers, cameras and their sons toys were taken.

We have "toys" that they could not even dream of and some feel that we can just replace them. Most of the cruisers I've met out here aren't rich, they just enjoy doing what they do--cruising. I've lost a few things off my deck but I tend to be careful. I've seen other that aren't.
You're right, boaters are vulnerable.

But the solution you're seeking may not be safe, and could leave you liable for a wrongful death for reasons explained here, so proceed with caution.

None of us want our stuff stolen, but an over zealousness could leave you in a "George Zimmerman" kind of bind.

By the way "rich" is a relative term. According to a lot of studies, "rich" is generally agreed to be about twice what you have.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:29   #103
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First thing to do if you don't have it yet is an electronic alarm system, interconnected to the spreader and cockpit lights plus hi intensity strobe and very loud siren. Add manual panic switch in a couple of places incl. the bed.

Next thing to do is add more security for companionway entrance and deck hatches. Cruisers have learned to add measures like steel bars and locks to severly delay thugs when they have decided to come at you. When they start kicking the entrance in with alarms yelling, it is time for your last stand defense inside the boat or, for those who do not want to use violence, for last prayers.

There is a good book called "Pirate's aboard!" which shows how different scenarios play out and where experts discuss above strategy as the norm with 100% survival as of the cases discussed (for those who are ready to use violence and make that clear to the attackers).
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:43   #104
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Re: Electrified Lifelines(on purpose)

A kid trying to get on a boat at night (or day) without permission, gets no more sympathy from me than an adult would. If a would be thief drowns, I will lose no sleep.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:10   #105
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Re: Electrified Lifelines(on purpose)

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A kid trying to get on a boat at night (or day) without permission, gets no more sympathy from me than an adult would. If a would be thief drowns, I will lose no sleep.


I'm guessing you'd actually lose a whole lot of sleep, while sitting in a foreign jail.
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