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Old 18-06-2012, 08:38   #46
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Re: Electrical Musings

"No one is burning any heretics. "
But under the forums rules ("Be nice!") you're still allowed to do that, as long as you give them enough drugs beforehand and build a workmanlike fire to get it over before they feel any pain. And of course, scrub up the burn marks when you're done. Isn't it just plain rude, when folks have been burning heretics and they leave a MESS behind on the beach afterwards? UGH.
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Old 18-06-2012, 09:26   #47
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Re: Electrical Musings

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"No one is burning any heretics. "
But under the forums rules ("Be nice!") you're still allowed to do that, as long as you give them enough drugs beforehand and build a workmanlike fire to get it over before they feel any pain. And of course, scrub up the burn marks when you're done. Isn't it just plain rude, when folks have been burning heretics and they leave a MESS behind on the beach afterwards? UGH.
LOL! Very funny!

Well . . .

To be serious (for a moment) -- since the Forum rules do allow anyone to disagree with anyone, and to argue against some assertion . . .

Then if someone makes an assertion which many forumites disagree with, naturally a little polite roasting can take place without violation of the Forum rules.

But I don't see anything wrong with that. It goes with the territory, if you choose to be an iconoclast, which is a very useful function (a people should be grateful to those willing to perform it).

My other great non-professional interest besides sailing is history, and I have certain theories about the European theater of WWII (having to do with the economics of the war) which contradict some things we (in the US) learned in school. I have written quite a lot on this subject, and some of my work (although it's a hobby) has been picked up in the literature. Since people's deeply-held beliefs -- inculcated from grade school days -- are challenged by these theories (which are demonstrably right, by the way, according to uncontroversial statistics), people do get very upset sometimes by them. So I am constantly being roasted as a heretic for these ideas, and sometimes not very politely -- I just patiently and politely lay out the facts, and in fact I have persuaded a few people, including some professional historians. Getting roasted goes with the territory -- if you want to argue an unpopular idea with people who disagree with you. If you can't take the heat -- stay out of the kitchen. On the other hand, unpopular ideas are not always wrong, so sometimes it really is worth taking that heat.
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Old 18-06-2012, 10:22   #48
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Re: Electrical Musings

"inculcated from grade school days " The history and purposes of traditional educations, that could easily lead to a forum ban because it would involve politics. Or even worse, since educational systems are often located someplace, under government controls, geopolitics. Now, if one were to compare inculcations from school systems to the way "homeschooling afloat" is done on boats...you could bring it back around to show that your cabin boy (what, a vessel in the UK doesn't have a a cabin boy?!) is arguably getting a better education because your electrical woes are providing him with a real application for the performance of mathematics, including multiplication and division and the application of formulas to maintain the battery charge.

See how I did that, and brought it back on topic? <VBG>

OK, your turn now, explain why or if Ike gave the Russians a shot at Berlin and muzzled Patton, in terms of economics and the economics of war (both) and somehow, make that relevant to cruising and especially to electrical self-sustainence.
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Old 18-06-2012, 10:46   #49
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Re: Electrical Musings

Sometimes these kind of battery charging and series/parallel discussions remind me of the guy who asked what time it was and was told how to make a watch!

The reality of many issues is that all the theorizing in the world ends up coming up against the reality of the marketplace, i.e., what materials & equipment are available to perform the intended service.

For example: Chargers are dumb. Their algorithms are designed for bulk, absorption and float, which are all well defined in respected literature from charger and battery manufacturers. Many times we see discussions where one party suggests that their chargers always (always!) increases charge exactly equal to the load placed on the bank, while others argue it doesn't happen that way and can't based on battery acceptance. My experience has been: It Depends, mostly on the soc of the bank and the load. Kinda silly to argue either point anymore.

The recurring confusion over the difference between equalization and regular charging is truly staggering to me, but I must admit I stagger easily these days, and more-so the later in the day it gets!

Attempting to equal the wiring connections between batteries in a bank and doing the end-for-end is a good idea. Simple and not worth arguing about.

While it's fun to continue these discussions, I agree that using references to respected and proven literature would help. My experience has been that regardless of the links provided, in my two decades of contributing and participating in various forums, there's one thing that remains a constant: We can provide the links, but we can't make anybody read 'em.

If they do take the time to read them, it is always great to continue the discussions if additional questions do arise. That's what makes this all so much fun.

Many folks have created blogs or their own Top Ten (or more) list of links and articles, like Maine Sail has done, which help avoid having to retype the same material all over again. And again...

So much of what is discussed, on this portion of this forum for example boating electrical systems, is NOT boat brand specific and is applicable to anyone with an electrical system on almost any kind of boat.

Enjoy, I do!
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Old 18-06-2012, 10:56   #50
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Dock head. My passion is military history mainly naval history. So id quite happily love to debate your theories ( it's a pity we don't have a proper off topic forum here )

But as to electrics. This is a science , ie it is fact based.

The problem with electrics ( and less so with electronics) is that everyone thinks they understand it ( to some degree) however many haven't much idea beyond the buckets of water analogy, but will expound forth.

Then you have the "real world" theorists. Ie "my system does this and this therefore the theory must be X and Y. " often they mix up ideas and rumour and voodoo electrics to fashion " an understanding" , often aided by books that unfortunately pander to the " amateur engineer" . The result is bizarre debates where some argue quite frankly nonsense as fact.

This is not the burning of heretics, this is the burning of the dogmatics . A far more acceptable pastime.


Heres an example ( and stu Jackson is only referencing it )
"

For example: Chargers are dumb. Their algorithms are designed for bulk, absorption and float, which are all well defined in respected literature from charger and battery manufacturers. Many times we see discussions where one party suggests that their chargers always (always!) increases charge exactly equal to the load placed on the bank, while others argue it doesn't happen that way and can't based on battery acceptance. My experience has been: It Depends, mostly on the soc of the bank and the load. Kinda silly to argue either point anymore.

"

Heres a typical nonsense. No charger I know is a able to differentiate load current from battery current all it can detect is it's own load and it's terminal voltage. It knows nothing about " loads". If you understand basic regulator circuitry you will see its simple to supply current to sustain a load irrespective if that is a battery or the system load. It's not silly, there is one real correct answer what's silly is " inventing" theories.


The fact is would you debate complex medical theories and argue with a doctor , probably not. So why do people argue electrical/electronics theory.


Dave
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Old 18-06-2012, 13:00   #51
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Re: Electrical Musings

If you are using a toaster, electric heat and other heat loads and your fridge/freezer you are using 200-250 a day. Make a real list of what you are using-how long you are using it-and what juice it takes, then dump anything with a heating element. Coffee=stove top, toast=broiler, heat/hot water=diesel hydronic for both, lights=all LED, ghost loads=get rid of them (run one circuit to charge your phones and run your laptops on 12 volt). If you want to live the landed life, get a dock space and plug in.

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Old 18-06-2012, 14:47   #52
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Re: Electrical Musings

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Originally Posted by nwdiver View Post
If you are using a toaster, electric heat and other heat loads and your fridge/freezer you are using 200-250 a day. Make a real list of what you are using-how long you are using it-and what juice it takes, then dump anything with a heating element. Coffee=stove top, toast=broiler, heat/hot water=diesel hydronic for both, lights=all LED, ghost loads=get rid of them (run one circuit to charge your phones and run your laptops on 12 volt). If you want to live the landed life, get a dock space and plug in.

This post, like several others, addresses a somewhat different problem, from the one I have.

200 amp/hours a day at 12v is 100 @ 24v -- in fact, just what I am using. When I live on board on my mooring, I am working, not having a vacation, and working hard, so I'm not in the mood for camping out. My battery bank copes perfectly well with this load and only needs charging about once a day. A marina slip in the Hamble costs $20,000 a year, so I really don't mind going to a little trouble to get the electrical household on board in order so that I can live comfortably on my mooring, which besides being basically free (a gift for life from the Queen, just for having waited out the queue -- what a great country, eh?), is also much more pleasant than the awful boat parking lot which is a marina. I've just bought a neat little silent Honda generator for less than two weeks of the berthing costs I am saving. Replacing my whole battery bank costs only a little more than a month of saved berthing costs.

My problem is the right and most efficient charging regime, not the amount of power consumed.
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Old 18-06-2012, 14:55   #53
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Re: Electrical Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Dock head. My passion is military history mainly naval history. So id quite happily love to debate your theories ( it's a pity we don't have a proper off topic forum here )

But as to electrics. This is a science , ie it is fact based.

The problem with electrics ( and less so with electronics) is that everyone thinks they understand it ( to some degree) however many haven't much idea beyond the buckets of water analogy, but will expound forth.

Then you have the "real world" theorists. Ie "my system does this and this therefore the theory must be X and Y. " often they mix up ideas and rumour and voodoo electrics to fashion " an understanding" , often aided by books that unfortunately pander to the " amateur engineer" . The result is bizarre debates where some argue quite frankly nonsense as fact.

This is not the burning of heretics, this is the burning of the dogmatics . A far more acceptable pastime.


Heres an example ( and stu Jackson is only referencing it )
"

For example: Chargers are dumb. Their algorithms are designed for bulk, absorption and float, which are all well defined in respected literature from charger and battery manufacturers. Many times we see discussions where one party suggests that their chargers always (always!) increases charge exactly equal to the load placed on the bank, while others argue it doesn't happen that way and can't based on battery acceptance. My experience has been: It Depends, mostly on the soc of the bank and the load. Kinda silly to argue either point anymore.

"

Heres a typical nonsense. No charger I know is a able to differentiate load current from battery current all it can detect is it's own load and it's terminal voltage. It knows nothing about " loads". If you understand basic regulator circuitry you will see its simple to supply current to sustain a load irrespective if that is a battery or the system load. It's not silly, there is one real correct answer what's silly is " inventing" theories.


The fact is would you debate complex medical theories and argue with a doctor , probably not. So why do people argue electrical/electronics theory.


Dave
I am weak on naval history; my interest is the land war and the overall conduct of the war. You can see me blather about it on Canadian TV in August if you're interested. My mooring neighbor, on the other hand, is exactly a naval historian with many books to his credit. His interest is WWI, however. I am learning a lot about the Battle of Jutland and all which led up to it.

As to amateur electrical engineers -- well it goes with the territory, doesn't it? We are all amateurs here, in electrics as in a dozen other fields related to sailing, and this forum is naturally full of all kinds of amateurish nonsense, no doubt some of it propagated by me. It's great when the occasional pro shows up to set us straight.
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Old 18-06-2012, 15:27   #54
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Re: Electrical Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"inculcated from grade school days " The history and purposes of traditional educations, that could easily lead to a forum ban because it would involve politics. Or even worse, since educational systems are often located someplace, under government controls, geopolitics. Now, if one were to compare inculcations from school systems to the way "homeschooling afloat" is done on boats...you could bring it back around to show that your cabin boy (what, a vessel in the UK doesn't have a a cabin boy?!) is arguably getting a better education because your electrical woes are providing him with a real application for the performance of mathematics, including multiplication and division and the application of formulas to maintain the battery charge.

See how I did that, and brought it back on topic? <VBG>

OK, your turn now, explain why or if Ike gave the Russians a shot at Berlin and muzzled Patton, in terms of economics and the economics of war (both) and somehow, make that relevant to cruising and especially to electrical self-sustainence.
Well, Ike didn't give the Russians any shot at Berlin. The Russians were entirely in control of the war at that point and there was nothing we could do about Berlin. The Russians were already past the former German border in Poland before we even landed at D-Day. We didn't even cross the Rhine until March, 1945, nine months later. By that time, the Russians were already approaching the Seelow Heights, Berlin was doomed, and Hitler was planning his suicide. Patton's self-serving, and damaging story that he could have beaten the Russians into Berlin if only Eisenhower had not held him back was utter poppycock. Eisenhower should have fired him when he had the chance the previous summer.

The subject is totally off topic and can't be related to cruising. Here is a good short account: EMC - Eisenhower Stories - Why Didn't General Eisenhower Try to Capture Berlin with an exactly correct analysis.
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Old 18-06-2012, 15:53   #55
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Re: Electrical Musings

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As to amateur electrical engineers -- well it goes with the territory, doesn't it? We are all amateurs here, in electrics as in a dozen other fields related to sailing, and this forum is naturally full of all kinds of amateurish nonsense, no doubt some of it propagated by me. It's great when the occasional pro shows up to set us straight.
Oh but that's all fine. The trouble is when the amateurs, when their idea is wrong, start arguing with the pro's. And that is what happened here and what Dave means AFAIK.

It is hard to explain things on a public forum when the pro realizes that the other poster does not understand the very basic laws of nature that apply to the case discussed. The Pro can't put 4 or 6 years of education into a couple posts on CF... so at some point it becomes futile.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 18-06-2012, 17:57   #56
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Actually dockhead. I'm an amateur sailor and an amateur naval historian ( age of sail) but I an a professional electronics engineer with 32 years experience !!. ( power design, robotics, drive controllers, digital, web, , in that order) three tech company startups etc. a fair bit of stray current has passed through my veins!! Lol

Just saying

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Old 18-06-2012, 18:07   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Oh but that's all fine. The trouble is when the amateurs, when their idea is wrong, start arguing with the pro's. And that is what happened here and what Dave means AFAIK.

It is hard to explain things on a public forum when the pro realizes that the other poster does not understand the very basic laws of nature that apply to the case discussed. The Pro can't put 4 or 6 years of education into a couple posts on CF... so at some point it becomes futile.

cheers,
Nick.
+1

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Old 18-06-2012, 18:13   #58
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Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, Ike didn't give the Russians any shot at Berlin. The Russians were entirely in control of the war at that point and there was nothing we could do about Berlin. The Russians were already past the former German border in Poland before we even landed at D-Day. We didn't even cross the Rhine until March, 1945, nine months later. By that time, the Russians were already approaching the Seelow Heights, Berlin was doomed, and Hitler was planning his suicide. Patton's self-serving, and damaging story that he could have beaten the Russians into Berlin if only Eisenhower had not held him back was utter poppycock. Eisenhower should have fired him when he had the chance the previous summer.

The subject is totally off topic and can't be related to cruising. Here is a good short account: EMC - Eisenhower Stories - Why Didn't General Eisenhower Try to Capture Berlin with an exactly correct analysis.
Nothing like a duality thread

In my view , the whole push behind D day was nothing to do with saving Europe from the Germans , it was saving Europe and especially industrialised Germany from the Soviets. D day was a direct line to Korea and Vietnam. Had the Russians not been successful or involved at all, US involvement would never have happened. Yalta was in effect an agreement in halting Russian advance more then a carve up of Germany. Subsequent expansion of the soviet dominion showed it wasn't successful of course. Had D day not occurred one could argue the soviets would not have stopped till the med. While the US could probably have lived with a Nazi Europe ( it had good prewar relations with Germany) it certainly wasnt prepared to live with a Soviet Europe
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Old 19-06-2012, 09:55   #59
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Re: Electrical Musings

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
While it's fun to continue these discussions, I agree that using references to respected and proven literature would help. My experience has been that regardless of the links provided, in my two decades of contributing and participating in various forums, there's one thing that remains a constant: We can provide the links, but we can't make anybody read 'em.
So can you find us links on “grouping of cells” or “cells series parallel” the interest is mostly on “lead storage cell” I will read them.
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Old 19-06-2012, 10:07   #60
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Re: Electrical Musings

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Eisenhower should have fired him when he had the chance the previous summer.
Did he not have him run over by a truck at the end?
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