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Old 17-12-2011, 17:16   #301
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
At any rate, generators seem to defeat the purpose of going electric to me.
I appreciate that you are talking from experiance, whereas I am still at the pondering stage........but for me a Generator would add a level of comfort, at least initially. Would ne nice to find out (first hand) that I didn't need it but living in a temperate climate I suspect that either won't be the case (or is simply a conveniance I like) - no matter what solar I have.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:16   #302
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Re: Electric Propulsion

I doubt there would be many windless and sunless days where I wouldn't have something else to do, or just relax. My whole purpose of getting a boat is to not have a set schedule except for mother nature's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan
Here's another thought:

Why not do what NASA does with thier solar arrays on your boat:

Close-up view of folded solar array. (Large image) -- Ookaboo!

I have a plan for a 300 watt system like the one above that will cost $1500, stow in a large duffle bag on deck and is capable of being hoisted up the mast or scattered around the boat to catch optimal sun angles.

you could even float it on a dinghy at anchor, or tow it in calm weather behind you.

This is an area that cries out for innovative thinking and experimentation, something most sailors seem loathe to embrace...
I would recommend stacking the solar panels and being able to slide them out from underneath another set like a drawer. You can slide them out in sunny days with no wind and will be able to generate more power. But at night or in a storm, since they aren't very thick and can be brought back in, they won't take up too much space and become a sail.

My idea is to make a bimini for a dream catamaran in the 28-34' range out of 8 solar panels (~1.68kW). That should produce enough power to run a decent size electric motor at half power on solar power alone during a large part of a sunny day. At anchor, it will be enough to run a dehumidifier or heater when it is sunny out. However, I plan to travel north and south to avoid the worse of the cold and hot weather seasons.

And yes, the boating industry doesn't seem to change very fast. The racers tend to get a lot more innovative and experimental.


*The problem with making a sail out of solar panels is that it isn't always facing the Sun. If you used a rigid hard wing type sail, and rows of solar panels could 'flip' 180 degrees to catch the Sun, it might work.
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:48   #303
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I appreciate that you are talking from experiance, whereas I am still at the pondering stage........but for me a Generator would add a level of comfort, at least initially. Would ne nice to find out (first hand) that I didn't need it but living in a temperate climate I suspect that either won't be the case (or is simply a conveniance I like) - no matter what solar I have.
David:

I look at the generator as part of a three legged stool of charging the battery bank. Solar and wind being the other legs. But, with each season I seem to use it less and less. I always like to rely on solar and wind first if I can. But, it is better for the battery bank if you recharge it as soon as you can especially after you have discharged them deeply. Solar and wind take a lot longer to do that. So if you are not usually at a dock (I'm at anchor or a mooring usually) the generator can usually recharge them a lot faster than solar or wind at this point. But, I've had times when my battery bank was down about 8% and it was a blowy night. By the time I woke up the bank was fully charged and I never had to fire up the generator. I like that a lot.
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Old 17-12-2011, 18:27   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka

David:

I look at the generator as part of a three legged stool of charging the battery bank. Solar and wind being the other legs. But, with each season I seem to use it less and less. I always like to rely on solar and wind first if I can. But, it is better for the battery bank if you recharge it as soon as you can especially after you have discharged them deeply. Solar and wind take a lot longer to do that. So if you are not usually at a dock (I'm at anchor or a mooring usually) the generator can usually recharge them a lot faster than solar or wind at this point. But, I've had times when my battery bank was down about 8% and it was a blowy night. By the time I woke up the bank was fully charged and I never had to fire up the generator. I like that a lot.
Mike - I just read a bunch of your blog. The series on the electric conversion was outstanding.

Anyone who has not read it, should immediately take a half hour and do so.

It really puts the conversion in perspective. For me, for a 30 foot boat or smaller used in coastal and weekend sailing it makes a tremendous amount of sense. When one considers electric propulsion in concert with a generator it is a great option.

I still don't reckon I would have it as prime propulsion for a world cruiser but as my current boat has a dead diesel you really have me thinking.

What I haven't gleaned are some basic consumption numbers. Can you fill in some of the X's below for your boat?

1/4 throttle = Xamps @ Ykts
1/2 throttle = Xamps @ Ykts
3/4 throttle = Xamps @ Ykts
Full throttle = Xamps @ Ykts

48 volt battery ah capacity

I'd like to get a realistic look at draw and range to help size things like genset, battery bank, solar and wind.
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Old 18-12-2011, 03:32   #305
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by SunDevil View Post
I would recommend stacking the solar panels and being able to slide them out from underneath another set like a drawer. You can slide them out in sunny days with no wind and will be able to generate more power. But at night or in a storm, since they aren't very thick and can be brought back in, they won't take up too much space and become a sail.
I like that drawer idea something else to mull over.........

FWIW my thinking is that Solar Power will mostly be required when on the hook (or a no plug in mooring - like mine) mainly for domestics.....and that when moored will likely be so for a little while (at least a few days, if not weeks) - so the solar does not need to be maximised on passage, and therefore (additional) dismountable panels (or a drawer arrangement?) is presently my favored option.

Probably will be a bit of a fag to set up (not a night stop thing) - but at 30' I simply don't have the room to permanently fix on deck half an acre of solar panels - especially if trying to make the installation(s) gale proof.

Fortunately I have a decent sized Aft Cabin that will anyway be serving as a walk in (and sit down!) locker........my favoured option at the moment (No Bimini - and unlikely to have anything that will support solar and no Davits, although that could change) is guard rail mounted solar, and not being required to be gale proof on passage would also allow some tilting to be designed in.....but drawers could also fit well in places

No idea where the money is coming from for all this
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Old 18-12-2011, 03:36   #306
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Mike - I just read a bunch of your blog. The series on the electric conversion was outstanding.

Anyone who has not read it, should immediately take a half hour and do so.
+1

Quote:
I'd like to get a realistic look at draw and range to help size things like genset, battery bank, solar and wind.
I shall be following your progress (or simply deliberations!) with interest.
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Old 18-12-2011, 12:18   #307
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You guys remember the old cliche?

Question: "How much does it cost to go cruising?"

Answer: "It costs as much as you have"

Its a cybernetic thing - self limiting.

I remeber the 1984 Olympics here in LA. There were dire predictions of gridlock. Anarchy. Riots.

Oprah would return, riding the 7 headed flaming beast of Babylon...

You know, the Apocolypse.

And then, something funny happened:

Traffic remained normal, or actually decreased. People rearranged thier schedules. Deliveries were scheduled in the wee hours.

Oprah never materialized. Instead, she ran and finished a marathon.

Same with electricity on a boat. When your resources are limited, you start monitoring them carefully, and you look for alternatives. You adapt and you conserve.

This is a very human trait - we are perhaps the most adaptible animal on the planet, able to survive and even thrive above the artic circle, in parched deserts, and high in himalayan mountains. We survive at sea, as well and we as a species have been doing so long before industrial technology came along and skewed our perceptions of what is neccessary.

To move aboard a small boat and go cruising is to make a concious, deliberate decision to downsize. It is also a decision to live an active life, foregoing many of the comforts of "civililization" in favor of simplicity and traveling light. Well, this means you have to "work your boat" - though I still maintain that living aboard and maintaining a small boat takes much less effort and time and is much more rewarding than living in a even a small house with a yard.

People like the Pardeys have set a baseline that makes my boat look like a marvel of luxury and technological indulgence.

And it is from thier minimalist perspective.

From the perspective of a typical LA Appartment dweller who knows nothing of the Pardey's however, it looks likes an exercise in costly self flaggelation.

Same goes for the typical wanna-be cruiser who only reads the popular (advertizing supported) magazines and goes to boat shows to educate themselves about what is "needed" for cruising. "38 feet, minimum - inboard diesel, radar, SSB, watermaker, roller furrling .....well, you know the rest. The advertisers dont exactly encourage the dreaming public to carefully wiegh the trade-offs that go along with upsizing - they focus on three things to seduce buyers:

1) Safety - and to neophites, Size = safety

2) Comfort - Ditto - And this is true: Size = comfort and convience.

3) Status - Size matters, at least socially - a large boat certainly confers status and prestige on its owner.

So the size and complexity of a typical cruising boat has grown substantially over the past several decades, along with its cost and complexity. This is arguably the result of the growing affluence of capitalist cultures, especially the expansion of wealth in its upper echelons, because the taste of these scions tends to filter down to the middle class.

We can argue weather the quality of boats has increased or decreased, I'm gonna guess its a wash - for every oilcanning hull or detabbing bulkhead in a new boat, their's a blistering hull or poorly sealed deck in an old one.

Electric propulsion and regenerative energy represent a "good" step backwards IMO using advanced technology to make what really matters better for cruisers:

The actual experience.

Self sufficiency

Low or positive impact on the environment and cultures you visit.

Slow down, relax, and smell the sweet salt air. Feel the sunshine on your face, the wind in your hair, and warm water lapping at your feet. Watch wild animals go about thier business as you glide by them in silence. Notice how the tiller tugs at your hand and how your boat rolls over and charges ahead with each puff of wind. Meet new people and set an example of intellegent, ethical technological advancement that defferes to nature, rather than defiling it.

None of this is going to be "perfect" or without compromises. Eliminate the evil stuff as much as possible, corral it into a corner, and keep jabbing it with a sharp stick, rather than embracing it and encouraging the wastefull bloated boats that now abound.

The happiest, most laid back cruising couple i've met so far were 30 something, and cruising an ancient 25 foot wooden classic boat they bought for $1500 and fixed up themselves.

It has a huge main, a tiny jib, a jib-boom, and a wood mast.

Thier dinghy was a 5 foot long lapstrake.

And they recharged thier batteries with two 30 watt flexible stainless steel solar panels that they stowed under thier bunk at night and placed in the sun durring the day.

Nice couple - they were very social, and seemed to be having a hell of a lot of fun anchored for free, just next to me, in the shallows of Cat harbor where large contemporary boats fear to tread.

;-)
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Old 18-12-2011, 17:53   #308
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Re: Electric Propulsion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Mike - I just read a bunch of your blog. The series on the electric conversion was outstanding.

Anyone who has not read it, should immediately take a half hour and do so.

It really puts the conversion in perspective. For me, for a 30 foot boat or smaller used in coastal and weekend sailing it makes a tremendous amount of sense. When one considers electric propulsion in concert with a generator it is a great option.

I still don't reckon I would have it as prime propulsion for a world cruiser but as my current boat has a dead diesel you really have me thinking.

What I haven't gleaned are some basic consumption numbers. Can you fill in some of the X's below for your boat?

1/4 throttle = Xamps @ Ykts
1/2 throttle = Xamps @ Ykts
3/4 throttle = Xamps @ Ykts
Full throttle = Xamps @ Ykts

48 volt battery ah capacity

I'd like to get a realistic look at draw and range to help size things like genset, battery bank, solar and wind.
Dave:

Thanks Dave! Yep, IMO having a dead diesel is a good time to at least take look at electric propulsion. Your question got me to take a look at some data of a test I did earlier this year. Every boat hull design, prop configuration will have some different results. My boat is a 30 foot 8 ton beamy catboat. Don't know what your boat is but, it might give you an idea of what to expect by taking a look at my results:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: NOTES OF AN ELECTRIC SAILOR: Tests from the harbor 2011
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Old 18-12-2011, 18:20   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka

Dave:

Thanks Dave! Yep, IMO having a dead diesel is a good time to at least take look at electric propulsion. Your question got me to take a look at some data of a test I did earlier this year. Every boat hull design, prop configuration will have some different results. My boat is a 30 foot 8 ton beamy catboat. Don't know what your boat is but, it might give you an idea of what to expect by taking a look at my results:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: NOTES OF AN ELECTRIC SAILOR: Tests from the harbor 2011
THamks for that link. Next question.

The current 48v bank you have is how many ah?

My boat is a maxi 7.7 at 4,000lbs.

I met another guy at the club last night. He is having his diesel overhauled right now. We started talking about a conversion. We often get ~3 knots of current here and calm winds happen. Yes we could do excellent tide planning but sometimes you just gotta go sail regardless.

We also have a couple of river destinations requiring 1 1/2 hours of motoring at 4 knots or so. 50 amp draw at 4 knots wont be much range for me and maybe this is not the situation to convert.

- convert saildrive to shaft (big modification)
- find space for a lot of solar (big hurdle on 26 foot boat)
- find space to put honda genset (big hurdle)
- buy conversion kit, batteries etc...
- buy genset
- buy solar power

When the diesel failed I stuck a $1500 outboard on the back. I have a 6 gallon aux tank and the engine burns 1 liter an hour at 5 knots for 22 hours of motoring time. I put in enough solar to run the necessites.

I think the answer for my is to get the diesel and saildrive out and all the associated smell and weight, patch the saildrive hole and use that engine space for other purposes.
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Old 19-12-2011, 05:37   #310
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
THamks for that link. Next question.

The current 48v bank you have is how many ah?

My boat is a maxi 7.7 at 4,000lbs.

I met another guy at the club last night. He is having his diesel overhauled right now. We started talking about a conversion. We often get ~3 knots of current here and calm winds happen. Yes we could do excellent tide planning but sometimes you just gotta go sail regardless.

We also have a couple of river destinations requiring 1 1/2 hours of motoring at 4 knots or so. 50 amp draw at 4 knots wont be much range for me and maybe this is not the situation to convert.

- convert saildrive to shaft (big modification)
- find space for a lot of solar (big hurdle on 26 foot boat)
- find space to put honda genset (big hurdle)
- buy conversion kit, batteries etc...
- buy genset
- buy solar power

When the diesel failed I stuck a $1500 outboard on the back. I have a 6 gallon aux tank and the engine burns 1 liter an hour at 5 knots for 22 hours of motoring time. I put in enough solar to run the necessites.

I think the answer for my is to get the diesel and saildrive out and all the associated smell and weight, patch the saildrive hole and use that engine space for other purposes.
Ex Cal:

Remember your boat is one quarter the weight of mine. So I would expect you would have somewhat different numbers in a positive direction. I'm using 4 8A4D's in a 210 amp 48 volt bank. You probably could get by with lighter batteries. Also remember the test I did was under battery alone. Normally if I was going to be motoring for an extended length of time I would fire up the Honda 2000 (which is not even maxed out power wise) which would give me 3 knots without drawing any amps from the battery bank. I could tap the battery bank anytime for some extra knots if I wanted without draining it too much. So doing 4 knots in a hybrid mode is not the same amp draw as doing four knots under battery alone. Also remember this test was without any sail up too. You do have a sailboat don't you?
As far as your currents of course it's also better to go with the flow. But, since I went electric I now sail in and out of the harbor (never did that when I had my diesel) I've got a narrow 90 degree dog leg to deal with lot's of current sometimes. As soon as I stop making headway I turn on a little electric propulsion to power through the current. When I'm clear I shut it down and keep sailing.
Since the Honda 2000 is about the same size as a pilots briefcase I'm sure you could find a spot for it on board your boat. You could also use it to charge your 12 volt bank too. I often am able to charge both the 12 and 48 volt banks at the same time and also power my laptop too. You could also use it to power a small microwave too if you wanted.
But, I have to agree if the outboard is working for you why not stick with it. The only advantage I could see for you to go electric would be it would be much quieter especially on a long motor sail. But, if the outboard works I don't see the need for you to go to the expense of an electric or diesel install. You boat will be lighter and as you said you'll have more storage space where the dead diesel now sits. Plus maintaining the outboard will be a lot easier than the diesel.
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Old 19-12-2011, 11:20   #311
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
I remeber the 1984 Olympics here in LA. There were dire predictions of gridlock. Anarchy. Riots.
To be fair, only half the intended countries turned up .



Quote:
the typical wanna-be cruiser who only reads the popular (advertizing supported) magazines and goes to boat shows to educate themselves about what is "needed" for cruising. "38 feet, minimum - inboard diesel, radar, SSB, watermaker, roller furrling .....well, you know the rest. The advertisers dont exactly encourage the dreaming public to carefully wiegh the trade-offs that go along with upsizing - they focus on three things to seduce buyers:

1) Safety - and to neophites, Size = safety

2) Comfort - Ditto - And this is true: Size = comfort and convience.

3) Status - Size matters, at least socially - a large boat certainly confers status and prestige on its owner.

So the size and complexity of a typical cruising boat has grown substantially over the past several decades, along with its cost and complexity.
Whilst we are rehashing stereotypes , I would add a 4th and 5th

4) Money - more money spent = more safe. A squillion salesmen and mega millions in advertising budgets surely can't be wrong.....

5) The re-definition of the term "afford" - used to be along the lines of I have the cash for a non-essential purchase (and still then some for unforeseen circumstances) which changed to nowadays: "someone will lend me the money" that in turn morphed into "I am entitled to someone lending me the money" .....and then (for many?) "it's your fault for lending me the money"

Quote:
The happiest, most laid back cruising couple i've met so far were 30 something, and cruising an ancient 25 foot wooden classic boat they bought for $1500 and fixed up themselves.

It has a huge main, a tiny jib, a jib-boom, and a wood mast.

Thier dinghy was a 5 foot long lapstrake.

And they recharged thier batteries with two 30 watt flexible stainless steel solar panels that they stowed under thier bunk at night and placed in the sun durring the day.

Nice couple - they were very social, and seemed to be having a hell of a lot of fun anchored for free, just next to me, in the shallows of Cat harbor where large contemporary boats fear to tread.

;-)
At 30 I was also a lot more relaxed, but then again I was halfway through a career of extended trips involving sitting on backside drinking industrial scale quantities of alcohol (etc ) in tropical places - with or without dusky maidens stroking my............ego . No boat involved though - hell, I often could barely cope with simply driving .

If I had my time again would probably do the same all over but if not, and instead went cruising I am sure my wants (not needs) on a boat and from the experiance would be very different at 30 odd to now (mid 40's - where did that come from??? )....or in the future..........and I suspect that most Long / Longish term cruisers are older (well, certainly the CF end of the spectrum are) As it was I think I did find the best solution for my desire (at the time) - to set my brain on fire . But I do nonetheless slightly regret not doing some extended cruising in my 20's.

I think everyone has own wants and needs from being on a boat - me is probably more towards your end of the spectrum (whether that is a good thing or not is perhaps another thing!), but I have no problem with others doing things differently (for whatever reasons) - I ain't no ones Mum .

In regard to Electric Propulsion - I have no idea what any of the above has to do with it , except perhaps it is a good illustration that one solution will never suit all. And in my book that's a good thing
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Old 19-12-2011, 13:55   #312
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Re: Electric Propulsion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
- convert saildrive to shaft (big modification)
- find space for a lot of solar (big hurdle on 26 foot boat)
- find space to put honda genset (big hurdle)
- buy conversion kit, batteries etc...
- buy genset
- buy solar power
I have no idea how appropriate this is (stumbled over by accident)........seems like a simple DIY Saildrive (bottom of an outboard)!



https://www.boatdesigns.com/Electric.../products/474/


Quote:
When the diesel failed I stuck a $1500 outboard on the back. I have a 6 gallon aux tank and the engine burns 1 liter an hour at 5 knots for 22 hours of motoring time. I put in enough solar to run the necessites.

I think the answer for my is to get the diesel and saildrive out and all the associated smell and weight, patch the saildrive hole and use that engine space for other purposes.
That sounds very sensible - but where's the fun in that approach?
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Old 22-12-2011, 05:39   #313
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Just in case anyone is interested there is an electric 48V sailboat for sale in the Tampa/Ft.Myers CL for pretty reasonable price.I noticed it on another unrelated search.I am in no way affiliated with the seller,just passing on what I stumbled on.

This is a great thread...
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:09   #314
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Just in case anyone is interested there is an electric 48V sailboat for sale in the Tampa/Ft.Myers CL for pretty reasonable price.I noticed it on another unrelated search.I am in no way affiliated with the seller,just passing on what I stumbled on.

This is a great thread...
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Tried to locate the boat in FL to check out the systems but didn't pop up on google. Can you point me to a link?

Thanks
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:42   #315
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Sure...
It's re-listed again.
It's located in New Port Richey.
I am in no way affiliated to this person(have to add that),just seen it for those interested.

http://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/boa/2822230513.html
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