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Old 12-12-2011, 20:27   #256
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Re: Electric Propulsion

At the end of the day..... many of us will have days in a row of 10 hr+ motoring. 50-80 miles a day. I look forward when there is a viable solution in electric propulsion.

"Popular Mechanics " magazine promised this in the late 50's with a golf ball sized fuel pellet. I am ready!
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Old 12-12-2011, 22:55   #257
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where do these folks sail?

Anyway, I've litterally got an infinate range as long as the energy going into my battery bank meets or exceeds the energy going out, something the engineers at Torqueedo were quite clever about:

They built a GPS based power meter into the battery pack of the travel series motors, so you get real-time data on speed, range, and state of charge right at the throttle.

I coupled that data with real-time monitoring of my house bank via Blue Sea System's VSM, and monitor my solar, tow, and wind generation via similar electronics.

Thus, I slow down when motoring: 1/2 the speed saves 8 times the energy.
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Old 12-12-2011, 23:04   #258
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
where do these folks sail?

Anyway, I've litterally got an infinate range as long as the energy going into my battery bank meets or exceeds the energy going out, something the engineers at Torqueedo were quite clever about:

They built a GPS based power meter into the battery pack of the travel series motors, so you get real-time data on speed, range, and state of charge right at the throttle.

I coupled that data with real-time monitoring of my house bank via Blue Sea System's VSM, and monitor my solar, tow, and wind generation via similar electronics.

Thus, I slow down when motoring: 1/2 the speed saves 8 times the energy.
I'd love to see more on your set-up.
A bit torn between a Torqueedo Travel 1000, and the 2-series. I think, for this boat, for what I want, the Travel 1000, with an extra battery and the solar panel, would work well. Being a long slender dory-style hull, with nearly no transome, is my biggest hurdle.
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Old 13-12-2011, 00:13   #259
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Re: Electric Propulsion in the tropics !!

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Originally Posted by Hogan View Post
"

The most popular destinations and cruising grounds are tropical, right?

The tropics are blessed with consistent moderate winds and strong solar radiation year round, right?

Most sailing in propular cruise routes is down wind or reaching.

This means a motor is only needed for convieniance and quite arguably, safety.

it's a SAIL-boat, right?

Your range, if patient, is infinite. Even becalmed in the ITCZ, just sit there for a few days, and your batteries will recharge - if the wind doesn't get there first.

...and many boats tie-up in marinas making recharging fast and simple.

The real question is not weather electric propulsion makes sense:

It's why anyone would have anything else aboard a cruising sailboat.

The tropics have moderate winds and solar radiation. Right

Real experience from someone who lives in the tropics is just don't count on either whenever you want them in a timely manner. We can get months of cloud and little sun and in areas of big tides diving is best when no wind.

I am not sure too many experienced Pacific cruisers would advise an relying on electric propulsion yet for many reasons.

You may be able to get away with it in coastal USA areas but them even thats a debating point at present.

Why am I observing this thread. Looking foward to the day electric propulsion can be a a realistic cost effective no compromise option some time in the future.

Cheers
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Old 13-12-2011, 05:05   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogan
.........

Solar, water, wind recharged electric propulsion does save money.

Look: a cruiser spends an average of 80% of thier time at anchor, correct?

The most popular destinations and cruising grounds are tropical, right?

The tropics are blessed with consistent moderate winds and strong solar radiation year round, right?

Most sailing in propular cruise routes is down wind or reaching.

This means a motor is only needed for convieniance and quite arguably, safety.

The single biggest, most complex, and expensive long term maintenace item aboard a modern sailboat is it's engine.

It is also the least reliable - prone to utter, catastrophic failure from any of dozens of causes.

It is dirty, it vibrates, it's noisy, it's smelly, and it's fuel restricts both your range and cruising options.

It requires several big holes to punched in your hull (inboard).

It's a bitch to service, it's an expensive bitch to replace, and if you spill just a tablespoon of it's fuel or lubricating oil in US waters, you are required to notify the USCG, boom it off, and hire a hazmat team to clean it up or you risk a $20,000 fine.

Each time.

Every 100 hours you are supposed to drain and relace the engine oil, and properly dispose of it (HAZMAT sqaud again) which no one does, because it's such a PITA, making that engine even more unreliable.

It's fuel attracts bacteria and water both of which will kill it. It funds terrorism and Exxon, and destabilizes world political, economic, and social structures, leading to wars, riots, bombings, and Oprah.

Diesel engines have hundreds of small, fiddley parts, dozens of which, like pistons, rods, pumps, cams, and injectors are in motion.

Moving things wear out.

Electric motors have just one moving part: The rotor. Two if you want to use roller bearings for it.

.............

Your range, if patient, is infinite. Even becalmed in the ITCZ, just sit there for a few days, and your batteries will recharge - if the wind doesn't get there first.

...and many boats tie-up in marinas making recharging fast and simple.

The real question is not weather electric propulsion makes sense:

It's why anyone would have anything else aboard a cruising sailboat.
This is a very biased view.

Diesels have proven to be remarkably efficient and reliable. They require in effect minimum maintenance and return long lives. That's a simple fact.

While you are correct re the simplicity of electric motors. The total electric propulsion system is far more complex then a diesel engine and typically contains several pieces of expensive electronics that are completely non-serviceable. Controllers for brushless motors etc are next to impossible to fix outside high tech areas. Charge controllers for solar , likewise. These all tend to fail catastrophically. ( whereas most mechanical things, as you maintained incorrectly , do not fail so) equally most sailors will voice their concerns over electronics and it's reliability on board a boat, rarely do they voice the same concerns over their diesel engine

Also high powered electric motors while quieter then diesels are far from silent when working hard.

By all means have a rational debate, and that debate todate, has decided that electric propulsion is still some ways away for the vast majority of users.

Dave
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Old 13-12-2011, 05:27   #261
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Although I do bear in mind future resale when making mods onboard (even though I am intending she be a keeper ) - on this am not too concerned about resale.........I figure that if I like the electric installation I can take it with me - and simply drop back in another rusty lump of Perkins .....in any event Plan B if the electric don't work out is to go back to a Diesel.....so no immediate plans to remove diesel tanks or start blanking off hull fittings etc etc.

I like having a Plan B
Dave you reminded me of something. When I was prepping my boat for Hurricane Irene I realized I could pull the motor, controller box and throttle off the boat and take them to shore just leaving the batteries on board. I could probably do this in under an hour. If the worse happened I'd have the electric propulsion system to install on my next boat or if my boat could be salvaged back on my current one after it dried out. You are not going to do that with a diesel.
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Old 13-12-2011, 05:50   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka

Dave you reminded me of something. When I was prepping my boat for Hurricane Irene I realized I could pull the motor, controller box and throttle off the boat and take them to shore just leaving the batteries on board. I could probably do this in under an hour. If the worse happened I'd have the electric propulsion system to install on my next boat or if my boat could be salvaged back on my current one after it dried out. You are not going to do that with a diesel.
I find I can remove my engine in about 5 mins the Yamaha comes away nicely , unlike you I can even bring the fuel storage and its fuel away too.

Try removing a Solomen motor and it's control system. ( do you have a handy crane )

Dave
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Old 13-12-2011, 07:31   #263
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I find I can remove my engine in about 5 mins the Yamaha comes away nicely , unlike you I can even bring the fuel storage and its fuel away too.

Try removing a Solomen motor and it's control system. ( do you have a handy crane )

Dave
Yes, removing a small outboard is a piece of cake too if that is what your auxilary propulsion system is. Electric outboards like the Torqueedo's are even lighter than a lot of gas powered models. Including my four stroke Honda BF2. I'm talking about an in board installation on an 8 ton 30 foot sailboat. I can't speak for a Solomen motor or it's components but, the system that I have can be removed without a "crane". All I need is a rachet and a socket and one or two allen wrenches. In fact it can be carried off the boat in a boat bag. Can't even do that with your Yamaha. As for me taking off the fuel (batteries) off my boat too. Well, yes it would probably take me another hour to do that. Mostly because I would have to make two trips with the dingy.
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Old 13-12-2011, 07:35   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka

Yes, removing a small outboard is a piece of cake too if that is what your auxilary propulsion system is. Electric outboards like the Torqueedo's are even lighter than a lot of gas powered models. Including my four stroke Honda BF2. I'm talking about an in board installation on an 8 ton 30 foot sailboat. I can't speak for a Solomen motor or it's components but, the system that I have can be removed without a "crane". All I need is a rachet and a socket and one or two allen wrenches. In fact it can be carried off the boat in a boat bag. Can't even do that with your Yamaha. As for me taking off the fuel (batteries) off my boat too. Well, yes it would probably take me another hour to do that. Mostly because I would have to make two trips with the dingy.
Silly debate, a 10-20kw electric system with its controllers etc is no more demountable then a diesel.

Dave
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Old 13-12-2011, 07:57   #265
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Re: Electric Propulsion

Well I could remove the Solomons system by hand, the motor is around 120 lbs, but it would be a pain in the ass, certainly not in a bag. The components are all packaged and the harnesses are well labeled so the pieces could be removed relatively quick. I just have 2 (at least) of everything to be removed.
2 motors
4 controllers
2 power boxes
1 main terminal box
The complexity of the systems are way over rated. They are quite simple and easy to understand once you rap your head around them. It wasn't made easy by not having a wiring diagram by either Solomons (I don't think they actually had one at the time they installed my system) or Lagoon who doesn't provide one for anything they build and a MAJOR gripe I have with most boat builders. However over the last 3 years I've owned the boat I've created one and will have it finished hopefully this year. The good news is I have a much better understanding of my boat overall than probably most people do of theirs. I consider myself quite handy with a wrench and have been very pleased with not having to use one on my propulsion system other than tightening up lugs on wires. The genset still requires maintenance/attention but the Admiral must be appeased.
Next on the list is Solar. I'm thinking 3-200+watt panels on the davits for the house bank and then in a year or 2 upgrading the propulsion bank (AGM's are still running strong) to Lithiums. By then I hope we will see batteries in the 60 to 80 cent range per AH. I need 48...

Steve in Solomons MD
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Old 13-12-2011, 09:43   #266
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Originally Posted by Hogan View Post

Anyway, I've litterally got an infinate range as long as the energy going into my battery bank meets or exceeds the energy going out, something the engineers at Torqueedo were quite clever about:
Or your batteries fail, something that will happen, so you don't literally have an infinite range.
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Old 13-12-2011, 12:47   #267
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Re: Electric Propulsion

infinite range? So what does that really mean? 10 miles then wait for a few days of sun for your solar panel or firing up a generator to recharge your batteries? Pluging in?

I hope to embrace electric propulsion someday. As soon as the technology reasonably accomodates the real world and a 20,000 lb boat.
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Old 13-12-2011, 19:30   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Antares
infinite range? So what does that really mean? 10 miles then wait for a few days of sun for your solar panel or firing up a generator to recharge your batteries? Pluging in?

I hope to embrace electric propulsion someday. As soon as the technology reasonably accomodates the real world and a 20,000 lb boat.
I saw the calcs somewhere else. It goes something like 200w solar panel and 200w engine draw at 3 kts. 24 hours a day perpetual motion machine...

Staggeringly incorrect...
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Old 13-12-2011, 19:42   #269
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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I saw the calcs somewhere else. It goes something like 200w solar panel and 200w engine draw at 3 kts. 24 hours a day perpetual motion machine...

Staggeringly incorrect...
A 200w engine doesn't seem very powerful. Kind of like trying to run your boat off a battery powered drill isn't it? About .3 HP?

(I realize you said "Staggeringly incorrect" just clarifying).
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Old 13-12-2011, 21:00   #270
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Re: Electric Propulsion

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Silly debate, a 10-20kw electric system with its controllers etc is no more demountable then a diesel.

Dave
Well, actually it might be a little more portable than you realize. I just looked at a Thoosa system set up at the St Pete boat show. The demo was the 6 KW but the rep there (a member of this forum by the way if he wants to chime in) confirmed that the 12 KW used the same case as the 6. The motor, mounts and brackets were not too much bigger than a bread box or in boaters terms, a 4D battery.

Demounting the controller and such I guess would depend on how it was installed and whether or not one used 5200 in the process.
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