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Old 25-05-2015, 14:08   #16
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post

So I'll add the RCD to the AC out of the inverter, before the galvanic isolator, then the panel.
The galvanic isolator should be first after the AC inlet. Having it after the inverter defeats the purpose.
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Old 25-05-2015, 14:56   #17
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

I have an ELCI, I replaced the double throw breaker in a blue seas panel with one. I had to lose a breaker position on the panel to fit the ELCI but it fit perfectly

See http://www.gudgeonblog.ca/?p=463
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:21   #18
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The galvanic isolator should be first after the AC inlet. Having it after the inverter defeats the purpose.
Oh crap, duh! Appreciate the correction.
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Originally Posted by alctel View Post
I have an ELCI, I replaced the double throw breaker in a blue seas panel with one. I had to lose a breaker position on the panel to fit the ELCI but it fit perfectly

See http://www.gudgeonblog.ca/?p=463
Great, I'll just do that then.. It should fit in the panel like you did. Thanks.

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:30   #19
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

Per ABYC rules the ELCI must be less than 10 feet wire length from the boat inlet. To do its job there should be no other device connected to hot or neutral between the boat inlet and the ELCI. The galvanic isolator can be before or after the ELCI if you like since it only affects the earth wire.
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:38   #20
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
I have only seen one or 2.


one was on a boat with an inverter charger. the charger (and the outlets it passed through too) could not be used on shore power. it would just trip the elci. probably because the time it took for the inverter / charger to release the ground to the N bond (required for ABYC) was slower then the ELCI to trip (which is now required by ABYC) ......
yay boats and new crap.
I have seen several boats in which the symptoms you described were caused not by the conditional N-green bond of the inverter but by panel pilot lights for the outlet circuits, that had hot coming from the inverter and neutral directly from shorepower/genset (depending on main source switch position).. You can fix that by splitting the neutral bus bars in separate bars (Dremel tool!) for each shore inlet and for inverter.
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Old 25-05-2015, 15:48   #21
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
I'll have a Victron Multiplus I/C with pass through, and a single 120/50a shore plug so no shared neutrals.

So I'll add the RCD to the AC out of the inverter, before the galvanic isolator, then the panel. The inverter will power outlets, and probably the water heater. I don't have much else in 120VAC. So I'd get an additional RCD for the water heater AC input from panel breaker.

I'm hoping to have wiring issues taken care of with a new blue seas panel and new wiring.

I have 2 heads, galley, engine room, and some outlets low to the deck in the cabin that I will replace with gfci outlets. The rest will be replaced with regular outlets.

From what you're saying, this above would be ideal a few correct with what I have?

- Ronnie...on the geaux
What you are talking about sounds OK (except for point made by someone about isolator) but the optimal (cost, looks, etc) solution will depend on what you have. You could deal with the water heater with an RCD after the water heater breaker, a whole-panel ELCI, an RCD inserted after the main panel breaker or an RCD after the breaker you may have close to the shorepower inlet before the panel..

You are getting good advice from others that I will not repeat (galvanic isolator and in-panel options that I did not mention) . In order to comment about details of best option for you (ELCI in panel or RCD or RCBO outside panel, and how to handle inverter): Can you send a high-resolution photo of your panel and tell us the distance between panel and shorepower inlet as measured along the cable? Also tell us if there is a breaker in between shorepower inlet and panel (probably in a plastic box tucked away somewhere), and send us a photo of that?
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Old 25-05-2015, 16:10   #22
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Per ABYC rules the ELCI must be less than 10 feet wire length from the boat inlet.
The main double pole breaker must also be less than 10' wire run from the shore power inlet. If it is, swapping the main breaker for an ELCI at the panel is not a problem.
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Old 25-05-2015, 17:23   #23
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The main double pole breaker must also be less than 10' wire run from the shore power inlet. If it is, swapping the main breaker for an ELCI at the panel is not a problem.
I agree as long as there are no loads between the shore power inlet and the ELCI. But the OP is considering a combination ELCI/circuit breaker so I presume there is no other circuit breaker already installed before the main panel.

Some boats are wired so they pass the shore power inlet through an inverter/charger with auto switching and then on to the main breaker in the panel. To be effective the ELCI has to be inserted before any loads such as an inverter/charger.
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Old 25-05-2015, 17:40   #24
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
What you are talking about sounds OK (except for point made by someone about isolator) but the optimal (cost, looks, etc) solution will depend on what you have. You could deal with the water heater with an RCD after the water heater breaker, a whole-panel ELCI, an RCD inserted after the main panel breaker or an RCD after the breaker you may have close to the shorepower inlet before the panel..

You are getting good advice from others that I will not repeat (galvanic isolator and in-panel options that I did not mention) . In order to comment about details of best option for you (ELCI in panel or RCD or RCBO outside panel, and how to handle inverter): Can you send a high-resolution photo of your panel and tell us the distance between panel and shorepower inlet as measured along the cable? Also tell us if there is a breaker in between shorepower inlet and panel (probably in a plastic box tucked away somewhere), and send us a photo of that?
I'm offshore at work on the ship so I can't measure or take pictures, get home Wed. But, I just bought the panel so it's in the mail, ( https://www.bluesea.com/products/809...B_29_Positions). The shore power cable from panel to inlet is probably 15'-20'. There is no breaker before the panel, it goes smartplug, to panel area, from there the neutral go into a DEI galvanic isolator, then to the panel.
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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The main double pole breaker must also be less than 10' wire run from the shore power inlet. If it is, swapping the main breaker for an ELCI at the panel is not a problem.
From what I understand these are guidelines to adhere by as best as possible. Similar to the battery fusing within 7" from post, sometimes it can't be done so it's done as best as possible.

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
I agree as long as there are no loads between the shore power inlet and the ELCI. But the OP is considering a combination ELCI/circuit breaker so I presume there is no other circuit breaker already installed before the main panel.

Some boats are wired so they pass the shore power inlet through an inverter/charger with auto switching and then on to the main breaker in the panel. To be effective the ELCI has to be inserted before any loads such as an inverter/charger.
So I would have to get a separate box with the ELCI before the I/C.

So from inlet, to galvanic isolator, to ELCI box, to panel breaker?

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 25-05-2015, 17:53   #25
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

Ronnie,

As someone else already suggested make a diagram and note the wire lengths. Post it and you will get better answers.

Normally the neutral (white) wire has no connection to a galvanic isolator. The only thing connecting to it will be the earth (green) wire.
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Old 25-05-2015, 18:09   #26
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Ronnie,

As someone else already suggested make a diagram and note the wire lengths. Post it and you will get better answers.

Normally the neutral (white) wire has no connection to a galvanic isolator. The only thing connecting to it will be the earth (green) wire.
I have not made one yet of my AC system, I was going to do this when I changed out the panel and rewired most everything.

Right then, I don't know why I'm crossing things today. I have the green hooked up to it currently. I'll report back when I have a diagram made up with lengths, etc. It's hard being away, but I have more time to research and read at work as I'm normally working on the boat all day every day when I'm home.

Will do, I'll be back with a diagram!

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 25-05-2015, 18:26   #27
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

Ronnie,

Having a diagram of how you want the system to end up can save a lot of time and money. It lets you think about exactly what you need and what you don't need. Also, it makes it easier to get advice here. There are some good ABYC knowledgeable electricians on the forum and they can help you avoid problems.

The diagram doesn't have to be a fancy computer drawing. A sketch drawn on paper is good enough.
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Old 25-05-2015, 19:11   #28
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Ronnie,

Having a diagram of how you want the system to end up can save a lot of time and money. It lets you think about exactly what you need and what you don't need. Also, it makes it easier to get advice here. There are some good ABYC knowledgeable electricians on the forum and they can help you avoid problems.

The diagram doesn't have to be a fancy computer drawing. A sketch drawn on paper is good enough.
No I understand, I just haven't had time to do it yet.. My DC diagram is with colored pens and a credit card. I have everything minus the ELCI, so that's why I was asking about if it were necessary. I'll probably make the diagram for the AC next time on the ship. This time home is getting the new engine running so I can get out if the marina I'm in. Last week someone sprayed an oyster boat and got over spray over my new awlgrip paint job. So I'll deal with that when I get back Wed. Idiots.

I appreciate the help guys.

- Ronnie...on the geaux
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Old 25-05-2015, 20:27   #29
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by SailRedemption View Post
So I would have to get a separate box with the ELCI before the I/C.

So from inlet, to galvanic isolator, to ELCI box, to panel breaker?
- Ronnie...on the geaux
Probably the best way to install an inverter is to put it after a panel breaker and run the inverter out to either a sub-panel or a portion of the main panel. That sub-panel or portion of main will have only the items you wish to run with the inverter That guarantees nobody will leave a water heater on by mistake and kill the battery bank in a few hours. Typically only the AC outlets are inverter fed.

You did mention earlier that the water heater would be inverter fed I recall. Why?

Nice panel choice by the way. I have installed that one before and like it. My only quibble is the DC meters are redundant and if a good battery monitor is installed as it should be.

One solution is to go shore power>galvanic isolator>ELCI>main panel breaker>inverter>AC outlets on panel. This only requires the removal of 2 jumpers on the panel - the ones from the main breaker to the hot and neutral buses. Put lockouts on any item you do not want to power with the inverter.
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Old 25-05-2015, 22:51   #30
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Re: ELCI breakers, anyone have them?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Probably the best way to install an inverter is to put it after a panel breaker and run the inverter out to either a sub-panel or a portion of the main panel. That sub-panel or portion of main will have only the items you wish to run with the inverter That guarantees nobody will leave a water heater on by mistake and kill the battery bank in a few hours. Typically only the AC outlets are inverter fed.

You did mention earlier that the water heater would be inverter fed I recall. Why?

Nice panel choice by the way. I have installed that one before and like it. My only quibble is the DC meters are redundant and if a good battery monitor is installed as it should be.

One solution is to go shore power>galvanic isolator>ELCI>main panel breaker>inverter>AC outlets on panel. This only requires the removal of 2 jumpers on the panel - the ones from the main breaker to the hot and neutral buses. Put lockouts on any item you do not want to power with the inverter.
I don't know why it would be on there.. I guess if I need hot water away from the dock I could start the engine... I could leave it out and just use the inverter for the outlets.

Glad to hear I chose a good panel. I will have a battery monitor, BMV702. I agree they are redundant, but I can't opt of of them for anything else. Easy to glance at without having to hit any buttons.

OK, I'll try to understand what your saying.. Here is a crude diagram (#1) how I think you have it..

And #2 is how I felt it should be.. But not sure how to isolate the shore feed from inverter feed on the panel to only do outlets.. Click image for larger version

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- Ronnie...on the geaux
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