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Old 22-02-2013, 05:40   #16
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Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
You've missed the point - just to put down FP.

Fischer Panda demand a better installation procedure than the instructions Vetus provided. FP are trying to be very helpful to their customers - and to help the sometimes useless installers of their equipment.

Please don't waste time with posts that add nothing, or are you just trying to get your post-count up. So far you have averaged nearly 4 posts EVERY day for the last 4 years. 48 posts just yesterday - get a life!

This is an Engineering and Systems forum where we try and help each other with feedback of our experiences, not just offer opinions. If you want idle chit-chat then please find another forum.
Why are you attacking me personally? Do you realize that that is not allowed on ths forum? I was discussing the FP genset, not my post count. When you have helped as many sailors as I have in the past 30 years or so, you can send me private messages about my post count being too high for you, but still not judge me on this forum. As for qualifcations for making posts, I can only say how rude you are to tell me that my posts are idle chit-chat. You should be ashamed and have at least read a couple days worth of my posts to find that you are also wrong.

In the mean time, your FP has failed twice. You are not alone. It will also fail again, no matter what you do about the exhaust system. The proven way to reduce failures is to reduce use. This is not opinion but good old statistics. I also owned a FP genset just like you and am talking about experience in addition to statistics. My exerience was that after changing the exhaust system to exactly their specs and having it fail again, they will offer to swap the genset with or without some extra payment. This repeats until they inform you that warranty has expired or until they have written the next spec for the exhaust system, requiring you to change it again.

You can not recommend a genset that already had two catastrophic failures for you. I agree that some nice people work for FP, but that does not improve the product. So here is my recommendation for you (I know you've been dying to hear it): do like me and make FP just a bad memory instead of an ongoing nightmare; pay somebody to remove it from your boat and eyesight and then let them install a Northern Lights unit. It'll be the end of your troubles.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 22-02-2013, 05:47   #17
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
You've missed the point - just to put down FP.

Fischer Panda demand a better installation procedure than the instructions Vetus provided. FP are trying to be very helpful to their customers - and to help the sometimes useless installers of their equipment.

Please don't waste time with posts that add nothing, or are you just trying to get your post-count up. So far you have averaged nearly 4 posts EVERY day for the last 4 years. 48 posts just yesterday - get a life!

This is an Engineering and Systems forum where we try and help each other with feedback of our experiences, not just offer opinions. If you want idle chit-chat then please find another forum.
Nick's post are always helpful, his humour dry and appreciated i suggest it is you that needs to cool it with unhelpful opinions.
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Old 22-02-2013, 06:58   #18
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
....The proven way to reduce failures is to reduce use. This is not opinion but good old statistics.....
Now we are having a useful discussion.

Reducing failures by reducing use would appear to be obvious - never use it and it will never fail!

My problem, according to FP, was that it was NOT being used enough - they don't like being left even for a month with salt water sloshing around in the waterlock that creates a humid atmosphere that can get back to the exhaust valve seat and corrode it. This can be a problem with any genny where the waterlock can't be fitted in the optimum position. Boats that just cruise up the Chesapeakes and never hit a 4 meter swell maybe be OK. Even Northern Lights have long instructions for when the Gen is ""Out of Service", including "Drain water supply lines and wet exhaust line."

I suspect many genny troubles are because users do not read the manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
......pay somebody to remove it from your boat and eyesight and then let them install a Northern Lights unit. It'll be the end of your troubles.
It may have escaped your notice but Northern Lights do not produce a DC genny, so your suggestions are again not very helpful.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:30   #19
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
My problem, according to FP, was that it was NOT being used enough - they don't like being left even for a month with salt water sloshing around in the waterlock that creates a humid atmosphere that can get back to the exhaust valve seat and corrode it.
[...]
It may have escaped your notice but Northern Lights do not produce a DC genny, so your suggestions are again not very helpful.
The humid atmosphere from the waterlock is only one of the problems with the FP. My Northern Lights (NL) and Yanmar engine also have waterlocks and humid environments, yet they never experience the FP related failures.
A way to reduce the problem is by using fresh water (using one of those Groco seacock modifiers for fresh water flush) for a bit or run-time to rinse the salt out and next drain the waterlock. I recommend to replace the Vetus exhaust components with fiberglass versions which also come with a drain valve.

My NL has the exhaust system components in exactly the same spots as the FP had (which were well within FP specs BTW) and there are no problems. Every NL comes with a "don't drown me" document which quickly shows what is good and what not.

I know NL does not produce a DC genny because this bit me too when I was forced to replace my DC FP. The way around that is bigger battery chargers. I know that isn't exactly what is desired but I found it a decent compromise for getting rid of the trouble. I also added solar power to boost the DC generation which was also a success. I upgraded to a better and more efficient inverter/charger which added $2.5k to the cost which made me unhappy at first but I got over it.

This thread is about a Lagoon 45' and I think a NL genset with the Victron line-up of components I described earlier in the thread is their best choice. It isn't the lowest-cost choice at first but might well end up being that after many years of problem-free use. I have had the setup in permanent use for many years (NL genset since early 2003!) and it just works trouble-free. Everybody I know with a FP has trouble all.the.time.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 22-02-2013, 07:36   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
In you opening post you mentioned a chiller system and a closed loop insulated water system wuth heat exchangers in each cabin, did I understand that part correctly? If I have got it right, the water can't be cooled to freezing so the heat exchanger in each cabin would be above freezing point, it would collect a bit of moisture but most of it would be still in the air. An air cond removes the water by freezing it, then it melts off as the system cycles, if the unit is too big for the room the same thing happens, the air is chilled before it's dried and the same uncomfortable clamy feeling is the result.

T1 Terry
This is absolutely incorrect. Both a chilled water system and a direct expansion system remove humidity from the air in exactly the same manner. When a direct expansion system freezes it is a sign of an airflow problem, not normal system operation.
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Old 22-02-2013, 08:04   #21
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

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This is absolutely incorrect. Both a chilled water system and a direct expansion system remove humidity from the air in exactly the same manner. When a direct expansion system freezes it is a sign of an airflow problem, not normal system operation.
Yes, I think I agree with that.
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Old 22-02-2013, 09:31   #22
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
...A way to reduce the problem is by using fresh water (using one of those Groco seacock modifiers for fresh water flush) for a bit or run-time to rinse the salt out and next drain the waterlock. I recommend to replace the Vetus exhaust components with fiberglass versions which also come with a drain valve...
I have been using fresh water flush for 4 years with a simple diverter valve and a bucket or two of fresh water, but I haven't been able to get to my Vetus waterlock to empty it. It does have a drain cock so I shall re-engineer the system to fit an extension pipe and drain it EVERYTIME I flush. Thanks for that.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:02   #23
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

Air conditioning is just an energy hog. Even a 24k BTU chiller system will run 200-275 amps per hour on a 12V system. This for the refrigerant compressor, two water pumps, (raw and chilled) and for the fans in the fan coils. Maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. Batteries might give you an hour or two then everything stops.

You're going to need a generator for A/C pretty much no matter what. As SM and jedi indicated, a chilled water system will remove humidity just fine. Well as long as the chilled water system temperature is below the dew point, which it would be if working correctly.

Really Chillers only work energy wise for larger marine systems, at least 4-5 tons and larger. For a 24K BTU load (2 tons), using two regular marina A/C would have a lower installed cost and lower operating costs.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:12   #24
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
In you opening post you mentioned a chiller system and a closed loop insulated water system wuth heat exchangers in each cabin, did I understand that part correctly? If I have got it right, the water can't be cooled to freezing so the heat exchanger in each cabin would be above freezing point, it would collect a bit of moisture but most of it would be still in the air. An air cond removes the water by freezing it, then it melts off as the system cycles, if the unit is too big for the room the same thing happens, the air is chilled before it's dried and the same uncomfortable clamy feeling is the result.

T1 Terry
As others have said, this is incorrect.

Humidity condenses at the dew point, whether that is a cold water heat exchanger or a freon evaporator. If you have ice, you have a problem.

Leaving water in the air is a symptom of not moving enough air across the coils or too small of system for the task at hand.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:16   #25
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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Air conditioning is just an energy hog. Even a 24k BTU chiller system will run 200-275 amps per hour on a 12V system. This for the refrigerant compressor, two water pumps, (raw and chilled) and for the fans in the fan coils. Maybe a bit more maybe a bit less. Batteries might give you an hour or two then everything stops.
How do LFP batteries change that? I think a 1,000 Ah LFP bank has no problem supplying 250A for 3 hours and do that every day for many years. The trouble is charging them up every day... where to get the 750Ah from... a big cat covered with solar panels might do that but I can only get 300Ah or so from our 660W array... which we use up during the day for things like refrigeration, entertainment etc.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:34   #26
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How do LFP batteries change that? I think a 1,000 Ah LFP bank has no problem supplying 250A for 3 hours and do that every day for many years. The trouble is charging them up every day... where to get the 750Ah from... a big cat covered with solar panels might do that but I can only get 300Ah or so from our 660W array... which we use up during the day for things like refrigeration, entertainment etc.
You may have read hat I am putting up 1500 W of solar. Had 950W solar before so I know that it will fit. If you get 300 Ah from 660W per day, then I should be able to get almost 700 from mine. My conservative estimate was 600 Ah. On bad days I can always run a small genny for an hour and get another 200 Ah's or so before going to bed.

As I said in my OP I am looking for an efficient AC. I was thinking of a VFD to drive the compressor motor at variable RPM. I am now looking at the MAR-IX that Lagoons4us is using. They have an inverter based system that promises up to 45% energy savings. Probably inflated marketing hype, but savings will be there over conventional systems.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:35   #27
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Rolf we have the MAR-IX Chilled water system on board, it works very well no complaints.

Cheers
Great suggestion. Are you using the inverter based system. That looks like what I want. I am now busy checking it out.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:40   #28
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

Well yes if nothing else were running then 1000 amp bank would give you 800 ish amps down to the OP 80% discharge. Probably a little less due to the high discharge rate. So you could get 3 hours if nothing else were running. But the refrigerator, tv's, PC's cable, etc,etc would already pull the batteries down some before the a/c was turned on. That's why I said 2 hours.

So hum, he would need panels to provide oh 130 ish amps per hour to regen the 800 amps used. In real life that's 21 100 watt panels or about nine 240 watt panels. Maybe more depending on shading issues that a sailboat at anchor has. Really cost wise it just does not make much sense, to run A/C on batteries. I like the Idea, its just not really practical yet.
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Old 22-02-2013, 10:50   #29
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

I would like to update my specifications and design goals.

I am seeing this as a research project with building and testing the system on my boat. I have always been intrigued by efficient designs.

The other side:
When I originally purchased my L450 the broker recommended air conditioning with an 11/13kW Generator. That sounded totally over the top to me. I did not want the huge weight and use up all that valuable locker space for an inefficient design. I am sure it makes for very easy production of the boat and little after sales support, as everything is oversized.

For me it has to be an elegant system in terms of of weight, energy consumption, space used and operation. This is not about getting it done cheap and simply, but at a decent price yet elegant.

As such I realize that the somewhat unfortunate generator discussion that came up in this thread can not be excluded.

I was looking at as small Kubota Diesel driven DC generator at the Miami boat show. Looked great for an elegant solution.

I am willing to do some experimenting to achieve these design goals. Pushing the envelope is fun.

I look forward to more great ideas from everybody on this subject.
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Old 22-02-2013, 11:08   #30
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Re: Efficient battery driven air condition for Lagoon 450 catamaran

I just found another Inverter Chiller from Frigomar. Looks like they are pretty new or does anybody know of one that has been around for a while?

Here is the PDF: http://www.frigomar.com/images/PDF/S...r_inverter.pdf
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