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Old 21-10-2014, 08:59   #121
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Originally Posted by Alenka View Post
For me the whole thing is about convenience.

These units cost about 3,500 here in the uk, less than half the price I have been quoted for having a genset fitted. Equally, I am not convinced that a genset would last much above 5,000 hours of use.

Don't get me wrong I still think they are expensive and my next task is to find some camper or boat show where they are on offer for 2,999... That price has a much better ring to it!
I agree. The convenience and other benefits are very nice if you can afford the cost. In the states a 210 model is $7000 or about 4400, rated at 105 Watts. The smallest diesel genset I know about is 3500 watts, over 30 times the capacity of the EFOY.

If you power a large battery charger with a genset you can produce more power in a couple of hours than you can running the EFOY all day and night. Even allowing for max charging limits and inefficiencies you get a LOT more bang for the buck with the genset if both units last 5000 hours.
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Old 21-10-2014, 09:02   #122
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenka View Post
For me the whole thing is about convenience.

These units cost about 3,500 here in the uk, less than half the price I have been quoted for having a genset fitted. Equally, I am not convinced that a genset would last much above 5,000 hours of use.

Don't get me wrong I still think they are expensive and my next task is to find some camper or boat show where they are on offer for 2,999... That price has a much better ring to it!
I can't imagine having to run a genset around the clock. I can barely stand to run the engine long enough to get us to where we can put our sails up! it would still have to consume fuel, require service, and puts out harmful fumes

If the power requirement for a specific boat fits the power envelope of the unit, and you have the budget, then it should be considered.
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Old 21-10-2014, 09:21   #123
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

I am interested in the system, with 3 refrigeration systems running auto pilot etc. We pull 10 to 12 amps all the time we charge with generator every day. 8amps additional I estmate we could extend generator time to every other day or two. Not interested in ugly solar panels. Weight and more so windage of panels, not attractive option.

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Old 21-10-2014, 09:32   #124
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
What is the power solution in this case? I can't imagine consuming that much power to force the efoy 15-24 hours a day. Boggles my mind! For the amount of power the 210 puts out, you would need a lot of panels, especially up north, and hope for sunny weather! gasoline generator? diesel generator? run the motor? I don't know, we don't consume even 10% of that kind of power draw running the AP, plotter, vhf, WSDT sensors, radar, lights and computer. Probably using 10% of the capacity of the 1600 model (or 140 - current similar model).

I guess we are not such power hogs as I first thought!! I mean its a sailboat, not the space shuttle!

If someone is going to outrun (or close to it) the efoy, then, obviously other technology needs to be used. That would be out of scope for what it was designed for.
Have not made offshore passages for a while so making a wild guess at AP power consumption but from what I recall from recent comments I would expect a min of 2-3 amps on average so 60-70 amp hours/day. What kind of AP are you running that uses so little power?

Other loads. In really hot weather my fridge would also use about 60 amphours/day. Add electronics, interior lights (mostly LEDs but even those use some juice), running lights (also LEDs), stereo, fresh water pump and a few other miscellaneous loads and then factor in the losses in recharging the batteries then that would consume most of the output of the EFOY 210.

Note that I am calculating all this based on worst case scenario, max load on passage running 24/7. At anchor cut that to a half or a third of max.

My plan to keep up with all this is to go for multi power sources. In order of preference: as much solar as I can comfortably fit, wind, high output alternator, Honda portable generator.
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Old 21-10-2014, 09:47   #125
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Right, glad you understand what I posted a couple pages ago,
the problem is these put out very low power.
How much is an 100 watt solar panel? $100.
And the solar panel last 10 years of 24x7 use,
but these have very limited lifetimes.

The other issue is charging batteries at such low power is not good for them,
particularly lithium it is equivalent to float charging them.

Maybe they can 10x the power and 1/10 the price, and will look better.

I'd like a new 40ft catamaran too for $50 Million dollars, it is nice, except for the cost...



Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
I agree. The convenience and other benefits are very nice if you can afford the cost. In the states a 210 model is $7000 or about 4400, rated at 105 Watts. The smallest diesel genset I know about is 3500 watts, over 30 times the capacity of the EFOY.

If you power a large battery charger with a genset you can produce more power in a couple of hours than you can running the EFOY all day and night. Even allowing for max charging limits and inefficiencies you get a LOT more bang for the buck with the genset if both units last 5000 hours.
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Old 21-10-2014, 10:08   #126
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Have not made offshore passages for a while so making a wild guess at AP power consumption but from what I recall from recent comments I would expect a min of 2-3 amps on average so 60-70 amp hours/day. What kind of AP are you running that uses so little power?

Other loads. In really hot weather my fridge would also use about 60 amphours/day. Add electronics, interior lights (mostly LEDs but even those use some juice), running lights (also LEDs), stereo, fresh water pump and a few other miscellaneous loads and then factor in the losses in recharging the batteries then that would consume most of the output of the EFOY 210.

Note that I am calculating all this based on worst case scenario, max load on passage running 24/7. At anchor cut that to a half or a third of max.

My plan to keep up with all this is to go for multi power sources. In order of preference: as much solar as I can comfortably fit, wind, high output alternator, Honda portable generator.
I would be more worried about wearing out the actuator running the AP so long! The fridge will be the only variable. We use the AP 2-6 hours a day with the other electronics, 2-4 days a week during the summer season. Unsure of what it pulls when we are using it, but we have used less than one methanol container for the year (march til this past weekend) using the lower model efoy. Other real world users (I only know of 2) have very similar rates of methanol use ( <1 to 2 containers/season) with similar size boats.
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Old 21-10-2014, 10:19   #127
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
I would be more worried about wearing out the actuator running the AP so long! The fridge will be the only variable. We use the AP 2-6 hours a day with the other electronics, 2-4 days a week during the summer season. Unsure of what it pulls when we are using it, but we have used less than one methanol container for the year (march til this past weekend) using the lower model efoy. Other real world users (I only know of 2) have very similar rates of methanol use ( <1 to 2 containers/season) with similar size boats.
I have made passages where I ran the AP 24/7 for 2-3 weeks non-stop. As I think back I don't recall ever wearing out the motor. But ther 35 years back if I recall correctly all the APs I had used a straight motor driving a chain to the wheel or similar. Maybe todays linear actuators are less robust?
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Old 21-10-2014, 10:43   #128
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
....
The other issue is charging batteries at such low power is not good for them,
particularly lithium it is equivalent to float charging them.
....
What information are you basing this statement on ?
Interested to know, especially re. Lithium.

Cheers,
JM.
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Old 21-10-2014, 11:04   #129
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Originally Posted by zboss View Post
Thats interesting... is there an internal catalyst like platinum?
Yes, platinum. To find more on internet search for "Direct Methanol Fuel Cell systems"

Interesting thesis in English.. Thesis pdf
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Old 21-10-2014, 11:46   #130
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by NahanniV View Post
What information are you basing this statement on ?
Interested to know, especially re. Lithium.

Cheers,
JM.
The efoy charges my (lead acid) batteries at 14.4v (I believe you can change this somehow, if you wanted to go higher/lower) at 6.1 amps. So far the batteries seem to like it. I am sure it takes longer than a 30-40 amp shore charger or large balmar alternator.. but it has got to be better than letting the batteries go to 9-10-11 volts before charging them.
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Old 21-10-2014, 12:51   #131
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
I would be more worried about wearing out the actuator running the AP so long! The fridge will be the only variable. We use the AP 2-6 hours a day with the other electronics, 2-4 days a week during the summer season. Unsure of what it pulls when we are using it, but we have used less than one methanol container for the year (march til this past weekend) using the lower model efoy. Other real world users (I only know of 2) have very similar rates of methanol use ( <1 to 2 containers/season) with similar size boats.
Not to change subjects but my Simrad DD15 autopilot unit is spec'd for 24/7 operation. It also uses only about 2 or 3 amps when the boat is well balanced.
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Old 22-10-2014, 03:35   #132
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Something new'ish that might suit those not wanting to go down the ful cell path.

Edge Technology: Power4motorhomes. Motorhome generators

The price is around 2,500
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:54   #133
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alenka View Post
Something new'ish that might suit those not wanting to go down the ful cell path.

Edge Technology: Power4motorhomes. Motorhome generators

The price is around 2,500
Maybe my vision is failing but looked at the specs and could see nothing about the output except 12V DC. Can't tell if it generates 1 amp or 100 amps. Do you happen to have specs from another source on the output?

It is rated at very low sound level 51 dB.

For 2,500 you could buy a Honda EU2000 with an LPG kit and a sound enclosure with money left over.
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Old 23-10-2014, 05:26   #134
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
why is it topping off the battery? because the voltage dropped below the threshold.

we are power hogs at anchor... nice to keep the batteries from dropping too low...and having to run the engine to charge the battery.

The point of the fuel cell, for me, was for the refrigeration. This summer was more of a test to get a baseline (and didn't have the money to do both fuel cell and refrigeration in the same year).

Now I know a non-refrigeration season is under one cartridge (yea, a whopping 60 bucks for the year.. i know..bank breaker!). So even if next year it is 2 cartridges, its still a good deal.

the boat has enough power, but not for a week or 2 (or more) with the refrigeration running on a 46 year old ice box, while on the mooring.

Hi,

Great thread by the way...................


I assume that your referance to refigiration you are referring to Air Conditioning.

Question....................... can you run Air-con from you batteries. ?
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Old 23-10-2014, 07:04   #135
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Re: E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

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Hi,

Great thread by the way...................


I assume that your referance to refigiration you are referring to Air Conditioning.

Question....................... can you run Air-con from you batteries. ?
Sorry I think you are slightly confused. Refrigeration as in refrigerator where you store cold food.

It is not practical to run air conditioning from batteries. Even a very small air conditioner will draw so much power it would take a ton of batteries to run even one night.
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