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Old 02-12-2014, 13:25   #1
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Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Today's WSJ reported that the investigation into the JAL Boeing Dreamliner fire has been ended with no specific defect or cause found, but laying the blame on Yuasa for an unspecified manufacturing defect which caused (or allowed, or fostered, or failed to prevent) an internal short in one cell from setting the entire battery one fire.

Apparently US authorities determined the only cause of the fire could have been an internal short, and therefore, they blame Yuasa and a defective battery, defective in some undetermined way.

The investigation into the second fire apparently is still in progress.

FWIW.
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Old 02-12-2014, 13:53   #2
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Yes, I heard they allowed a certain amount of defects on the plates... and that level of defects was too much. They have had to control the quality tighter. Hmmmmm... wonder just how good the Boat version of Lithium batteries are going to be? Nothing like aerospace I can assure you.....
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Old 02-12-2014, 13:58   #3
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Well there you go!! It could have not been a faulty system design that allowed for a cell failure or not prevented the melt down or even a poor cockpit indication on what % remained in the battery. Will ensure any wire from any connection on the battery going into my boat can have any wire short to any point without any wire burning or battery being lost from the system due to any electronic failure with full BMS & monitor system. ( I have to say I have used wire branded Boeing however) Even though it is only lifepo4!!
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Old 02-12-2014, 14:04   #4
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Today's WSJ reported that the investigation into the JAL Boeing Dreamliner fire has been ended with no specific defect or cause found, but laying the blame on Yuasa for an unspecified manufacturing defect which caused (or allowed, or fostered, or failed to prevent) an internal short in one cell from setting the entire battery one fire.

Apparently US authorities determined the only cause of the fire could have been an internal short, and therefore, they blame Yuasa and a defective battery, defective in some undetermined way.

The investigation into the second fire apparently is still in progress.

FWIW.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but assume this is a lithium ion battery or was it some other chemistry?
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Old 02-12-2014, 14:05   #5
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

The lithium batteries the 787 uses are not the same as those used on most boats. The chemistry and usage is different. There is not a lot we can learn from the 787 problems as applied to boats.
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Old 02-12-2014, 14:52   #6
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but assume this is a lithium ion battery or was it some other chemistry?
Boeing uses Lithium Cobalt. Not the same thing as most boats use.
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Old 02-12-2014, 14:57   #7
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but assume this is a lithium ion battery or was it some other chemistry?

Lithium polymer I believe, biggest difference between it an LI-Ion is Li-Ion is in a can like a flashlight battery, Li-Po is in a polymer bag, reducing weight and increasing energy density even further.

But yes comparing Li-Po to LIFE is like comparing gasoline to Diesel or similar, as far as I can tell, there have been no LIFE fires, but many Li-Po ones, even something as small as cell phones have caught fire,

May be wrong though
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:42   #8
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Interesting unrelated news story last night regarding shipping Lithium batteries. Just shipping normal Lithium Cellphone and Laptop batteries in heated cargo containers is causing fires and explosions. These are new small batteries in packaging, but in large quantities. There was a good video on there.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:56   #9
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

"this is a lithium ion battery or was it some other chemistry? "


There are many different chemistries and all of them, except for LiFePO4, use a flammable electrolyte. The difference between a "prismatic" cell and a cylindrical one, appears to be simply a question of whether you roll up the plates and separators (cylindrical) or roll them as is you were folding sheets, resulting in a rectangular final shape. (Well, the poor folk fold their own sheets, we know yachtsmen have hired help to do that, they can show you what it looks like.(G)


Couple of weeks ago, the UN and the IAPA (pilots) were meeting to consider a 100% ban on all "lithium" batteries in cargo, because they simply can't see any alternative to prevent cargo fires. Shipping the cells half charged, separating them, using magical charms...a lot of pilots and airlines are convinced the damned things are all grenades with the pins already pulled out. Obviously, they don't all catch fire, but "just once" can really ruin your day at 30,000 feet.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:59   #10
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"this is a lithium ion battery or was it some other chemistry? "


There are many different chemistries and all of them, except for LiFePO4, use a flammable electrolyte. The difference between a "prismatic" cell and a cylindrical one, appears to be simply a question of whether you roll up the plates and separators (cylindrical) or roll them as is you were folding sheets, resulting in a rectangular final shape. (Well, the poor folk fold their own sheets, we know yachtsmen have hired help to do that, they can show you what it looks like.(G)


Couple of weeks ago, the UN and the IAPA (pilots) were meeting to consider a 100% ban on all "lithium" batteries in cargo, because they simply can't see any alternative to prevent cargo fires. Shipping the cells half charged, separating them, using magical charms...a lot of pilots and airlines are convinced the damned things are all grenades with the pins already pulled out. Obviously, they don't all catch fire, but "just once" can really ruin your day at 30,000 feet.
Yes, I think the potential Ban was what this TV story was about.
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Old 03-12-2014, 13:10   #11
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

I got a little interested and started looking myself, I've found good, reputable sources that have said it's a Li-Ion battery, Li-Po, and as transmitterdan said, Lithium Cobalt (Li-Co).

I think the tendency is to group all lithium technologies together and call it Li-Ion?
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Old 03-12-2014, 16:39   #12
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Boeing’s Dreamliner batteries “inherently unsafe”—and yours may be too | Ars Technica
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Old 03-12-2014, 20:42   #13
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Heck, Dan, folks told Orville and Wilbur that aircraft were inherently unsafe and nothing at all has changed since they. Like the Army drinking song goes, "They go up, they come down, kerrrASH!"

It is in the nature of aircraft to come out of the sky.
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Old 03-12-2014, 21:36   #14
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Interesting unrelated news story last night regarding shipping Lithium batteries. Just shipping normal Lithium Cellphone and Laptop batteries in heated cargo containers is causing fires and explosions. These are new small batteries in packaging, but in large quantities. There was a good video on there.

I was browsing around (Def & WM) looking at some (gift) wristwatches, and there is a new caution there (on Defndr at least):
" This product contains a lithium battery and cannot ship via US Postal Service or SurePost. "

One freakin' little watch battery?
Yikes, I've got a bag full of spares (well, 8 or 10 of them at home in a cabinet).
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:18   #15
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Re: Dreamliner lithium battery fire, investigation ended.

Tx, it just goes to show that despite the unvarying language in the CFR about common carriers and what is or isn't hazmat, that each carrier interprets things differently. And each vendor as well.

I suspect that the USPS will take wristwatches by what we used to call "Parcel Post" without any complaint. That's strictly ground service. But anything that might go on a plane, might be a different story. West might even be saying that because they get a better bulk rate from UPS or FedEx Home, you never know.

I wonder if the TSA has heard, there's this guy, he threatens to flush his watch battery down the toilet of a plane unless the pilot diverts the flight to... [sigh]
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