Double Dipping - Page 2

Bash · 07-09-2009, 20:38

correct. either way...

Chief Engineer · 07-09-2009, 21:27

Who uses a windlass to break an anchor free?

I never have.....I use it to get the chain tight....period.

I then use the engine/wind/wave action to break it free.

You never try to "horse an anchor out with you back...do ya?

Mule · 08-09-2009, 05:48

How 'bout this? Windlass, bow thruster and wash down pump all run off separate battery and charger so wire is small feeding AC to charger then heavy gauge short runs to bow thruster, windlass and pump. That is the direction I am thinking of going, any thoughts, any downside besides another battery&charger?

BTW the party barge is going to be on the block, replaced with a Mainship 34 to be docked in Corpus area.

HobieFan · 09-09-2009, 23:52

I've done plenty of wiring and tapping off that #0 wire shouldn't be an issue. Just make sure you breaker/fuse the smaller line at the junction.

There are some resistance/voltage concerns I would have. I might try to put a volt meter on the junction and measure voltages at slack current (should be in the 13-14 range) and high loads from both the windlass and the pump. Make sure that the pump doesn't draw down the voltage much when they're run simultaneously (as compared to the windlass alone).

I doubt it should, being so much smaller, but some motors are poorly built without the proper resistance so I'd want to test just to make sure.

If it doesn't bring down the voltage and the breakers/fuses are properly installed and sized, I see no issue running them together on the same wiring.

To address the question about the windlass being run from a starter battery, it has nothing to do with the location of the bank, but with the type of battery. Deep-cycle batteries aren't capable, nor designed to output high loads. A 50A windlass may not destroy a deep-cycle battery, but high loads like that which can be generated by an overloaded motor aren't advised. However, if you have a substantial bank in parallel (like 3-4 house batteries), or don't have "real" deep-cycle batteries (those labeled "marine" are usually more of a hybrid), then it should be no issue.

Easy, eh? :-)

**Ex-Calif** · 07-09-2009, 22:30

You basically have an X supply of amperage over a Y length of "probably" 0 cable.

The fact that this supply terminates at the windlass is irrelevant. If the circuit (wire run) is sized for the load of both windlass and wash pump - go ahead.

If it is not sized large enough then you have to run them separately.

In either case the circuit protecttion for the supply needs to be sized appropriately for the capacity of the circuit - not the load applied.

I strongly suspect that the 0 guage leg going forward can handle the current of both the windlass and the wash pump.

I would therefore -

1 - Increase the circuit protection of the supply going forward to handle both loads, as long as the circuit (wire size) can handle both loads. e.g 60 amp

2 - Terminate the 0 guage somewhere near the windlass with an appropriate terminal block and then run a new short 0 guage with correctly sized circuit protectoin on this very short leg to the windlass. e.g. 50 amp

3 - On another terminal of the block I would run a supply for the wash pump with appropriately sized wire (you say #8 or #10) and appropriately sized circuit protection. e.g 10 amp

I would not run both units on one fuse. The fuse for the windlass will be way too large for the wash pump and if the wash pump fails in some way the extra capacity of the circuit could allow additional damage to the wash pump even though the circuit (wire) is protected.

s/v Jedi · 07-09-2009, 23:28

A 1/0 cable can handle 285A so the breaker protecting that cable may be that value at maximum without risk of fire. When he taps into that circuit with #10 wire (is over dimensioned, a size #12 is probably still oversized) at the windlass, put in a 15A fuse and on to the pump, there should be no problem. When the breaker for the windlass starts tripping often when pump is operating too, it's value can be increased 15A.

Charlie: you will find that pointing a continuous jet of water at the top of the anchor roller while hauling in chain is the most efficient way. Only when it is really really bad, you have to stop the windlass for more cleaning.

ciao!
Nick.

**David M** · 08-09-2009, 01:09

Charlie, you should be fine. Just fuse the wire going to the wash down pump appropriately.

**Pblais** · 08-09-2009, 05:23

Quote:

Charlie: you will find that pointing a continuous jet of water at the top of the anchor roller while hauling in chain is the most efficient way. Only when it is really really bad, you have to stop the windlass for more cleaning.

Yes, I do that all the time when I have sticky mud as we do here. If you do it that way the mud stays in the water and not on the boat. It means the pump runs the entire time I'.m pulling in chain. I often have to stop and wash extra when it really coats the entire chain solid with mud. For sand I don't find I need a wash down.

forsailbyowner · 28-09-2009, 12:51

Hmmm considering your installation, where are you picking up water from? I have my washdown pump mounted near the strainer in the head. Are you going to have to run plumbing through v berth also? I have one of those coiled hoses that sits neatly in a 4" piece of pvc near the head. It easily reaches bow for washdown, is used most often for rinsing head, required minimal plumbing and is wired off macerator circuit which is nearby. Just an alternate method to consider.

Cheechako · 28-09-2009, 13:38

It'll work fine if the cables to the windlass were installed with adequate size and werent skimped on. The breaker and cables are/should be sized for the momentary startup draw of the motor which is much higher than the running load. If the windlass is groaning... dont use the pump. But then, you shouldnt be using the windlass in a situation where it's groaning as mentioned in above post. My 44 footer was set up that way. no hiccups, no issues. Fuse the pump. Ive never had a windlass pop a windlass breaker that came with the windlass....even though I've worked them pretty hard sometimes (shame on me!) .... often wondered if they are over rated...?

Jim Cate · 28-09-2009, 13:49

Charlie,
If it makes you feel any better about your plan, it is exactly what I did on Insatiable II about 5 years ago, and it does work just fine. The additional load of the pump is trivial when compared to the windlass, and I'd bet the farm that you will never notice the difference in windlass performance when you turn on the washdown.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II
lying Port Vila, Efate Island, Vanuatu (for about 4 more hours, then outward bound for New Caledonia)

rodney_k · 28-09-2009, 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Charlie,
If it makes you feel any better about your plan, it is exactly what I did on Insatiable II about 5 years ago, and it does work just fine. The additional load of the pump is trivial when compared to the windlass, and I'd bet the farm that you will never notice the difference in windlass performance when you turn on the washdown.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II
lying Port Vila, Efate Island, Vanuatu (for about 4 more hours, then outward bound for New Caledonia)

Charlie,

I too have the exact same setup & it works just fine. No issues at all in 11 years of operation.

Just fuse the water pump at the tap in point appropriately & enjoy.

Strygaldwir · 28-09-2009, 16:05

I have taken this approach in several instances. I have what I call terminal node junctions on the boat. I have a large wire coming off my breaker to a box that has multiple fuse circuits. A breaker protects each of the wires to the terminal boxes. Individual runs are then protected by fuses to each of the devices (mostly overhead lights and such). I do the same thing with my anchor windless and the vacuum pump on my holding tank. I tap off a junction to the windless, then fused and routed a wire to the vacuum pump. I haven't explicitly tried flushing the toilet while running the windlass. Do expect any issues though.

09-09-2009, 23:52	#4
HobieFan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: CA Boat: Cal 34 Posts: 109	Sounds good I've done plenty of wiring and tapping off that #0 wire shouldn't be an issue. Just make sure you breaker/fuse the smaller line at the junction. There are some resistance/voltage concerns I would have. I might try to put a volt meter on the junction and measure voltages at slack current (should be in the 13-14 range) and high loads from both the windlass and the pump. Make sure that the pump doesn't draw down the voltage much when they're run simultaneously (as compared to the windlass alone). I doubt it should, being so much smaller, but some motors are poorly built without the proper resistance so I'd want to test just to make sure. If it doesn't bring down the voltage and the breakers/fuses are properly installed and sized, I see no issue running them together on the same wiring. To address the question about the windlass being run from a starter battery, it has nothing to do with the location of the bank, but with the type of battery. Deep-cycle batteries aren't capable, nor designed to output high loads. A 50A windlass may not destroy a deep-cycle battery, but high loads like that which can be generated by an overloaded motor aren't advised. However, if you have a substantial bank in parallel (like 3-4 house batteries), or don't have "real" deep-cycle batteries (those labeled "marine" are usually more of a hybrid), then it should be no issue. Easy, eh? :-)

07-09-2009, 22:30	#5
Ex-Calif Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah! Posts: 4,567	You basically have an X supply of amperage over a Y length of "probably" 0 cable. The fact that this supply terminates at the windlass is irrelevant. If the circuit (wire run) is sized for the load of both windlass and wash pump - go ahead. If it is not sized large enough then you have to run them separately. In either case the circuit protecttion for the supply needs to be sized appropriately for the capacity of the circuit - not the load applied. I strongly suspect that the 0 guage leg going forward can handle the current of both the windlass and the wash pump. I would therefore - 1 - Increase the circuit protection of the supply going forward to handle both loads, as long as the circuit (wire size) can handle both loads. e.g 60 amp 2 - Terminate the 0 guage somewhere near the windlass with an appropriate terminal block and then run a new short 0 guage with correctly sized circuit protectoin on this very short leg to the windlass. e.g. 50 amp 3 - On another terminal of the block I would run a supply for the wash pump with appropriately sized wire (you say #8 or #10) and appropriately sized circuit protection. e.g 10 amp I would not run both units on one fuse. The fuse for the windlass will be way too large for the wash pump and if the wash pump fails in some way the extra capacity of the circuit could allow additional damage to the wash pump even though the circuit (wire) is protected. __________________ *Dan - Relax Lah! - Changi Sailing Club* Custom CF Google Search & CF Rules Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available - Benford

08-09-2009, 01:09	#7
David M Moderator Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco Bay Boat: research vessel Posts: 4,660	Charlie, you should be fine. Just fuse the wire going to the wash down pump appropriately. __________________ David Where land ends life begins.

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07-09-2009, 20:38	#1
Bash Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: sausalito Boat: h46LE Posts: 690	correct. either way... __________________ reality is for those who lack imagination

07-09-2009, 21:27	#2
Chief Engineer Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: North of Baltimore Boat: Ericson 27 & 18' Herrmann Catboat Posts: 2,016	Who uses a windlass to break an anchor free? I never have.....I use it to get the chain tight....period. I then use the engine/wind/wave action to break it free. You never try to "horse an anchor out with you back...do ya?

08-09-2009, 05:48	#3
Mule Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Fort Worth Boat: 22 ft Bennington Tritoon, 14.5 Kayak, 34 Mainship Posts: 218	How 'bout this? Windlass, bow thruster and wash down pump all run off separate battery and charger so wire is small feeding AC to charger then heavy gauge short runs to bow thruster, windlass and pump. That is the direction I am thinking of going, any thoughts, any downside besides another battery&charger? BTW the party barge is going to be on the block, replaced with a Mainship 34 to be docked in Corpus area.

07-09-2009, 23:28	#6
s/v Jedi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Boat: Sundeer 64 - Jedi Posts: 1,524	A 1/0 cable can handle 285A so the breaker protecting that cable may be that value at maximum without risk of fire. When he taps into that circuit with #10 wire (is over dimensioned, a size #12 is probably still oversized) at the windlass, put in a 15A fuse and on to the pump, there should be no problem. When the breaker for the windlass starts tripping often when pump is operating too, it's value can be increased 15A. Charlie: you will find that pointing a continuous jet of water at the top of the anchor roller while hauling in chain is the most efficient way. Only when it is really really bad, you have to stop the windlass for more cleaning. ciao! Nick.

28-09-2009, 12:51	#9
forsailbyowner Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Tampa to New York Boat: Morgan 33 OutIsland, Magic Posts: 445	Hmmm considering your installation, where are you picking up water from? I have my washdown pump mounted near the strainer in the head. Are you going to have to run plumbing through v berth also? I have one of those coiled hoses that sits neatly in a 4" piece of pvc near the head. It easily reaches bow for washdown, is used most often for rinsing head, required minimal plumbing and is wired off macerator circuit which is nearby. Just an alternate method to consider.

28-09-2009, 13:38	#10
Cheechako Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Skagit City, WA Boat: Fellippi 32 Posts: 2,205	It'll work fine if the cables to the windlass were installed with adequate size and werent skimped on. The breaker and cables are/should be sized for the momentary startup draw of the motor which is much higher than the running load. If the windlass is groaning... dont use the pump. But then, you shouldnt be using the windlass in a situation where it's groaning as mentioned in above post. My 44 footer was set up that way. no hiccups, no issues. Fuse the pump. Ive never had a windlass pop a windlass breaker that came with the windlass....even though I've worked them pretty hard sometimes (shame on me!) .... often wondered if they are over rated...?

28-09-2009, 13:49	#11
Jim Cate Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: cruising SW Pacific Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop Insatiable II Posts: 278	Charlie, If it makes you feel any better about your plan, it is exactly what I did on Insatiable II about 5 years ago, and it does work just fine. The additional load of the pump is trivial when compared to the windlass, and I'd bet the farm that you will never notice the difference in windlass performance when you turn on the washdown. Cheers, Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Port Vila, Efate Island, Vanuatu (for about 4 more hours, then outward bound for New Caledonia)

28-09-2009, 16:05	#13
Strygaldwir Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Deale, Maryland Boat: SeaView - Privilege 37 Posts: 834	I have taken this approach in several instances. I have what I call terminal node junctions on the boat. I have a large wire coming off my breaker to a box that has multiple fuse circuits. A breaker protects each of the wires to the terminal boxes. Individual runs are then protected by fuses to each of the devices (mostly overhead lights and such). I do the same thing with my anchor windless and the vacuum pump on my holding tank. I tap off a junction to the windless, then fused and routed a wire to the vacuum pump. I haven't explicitly tried flushing the toilet while running the windlass. Do expect any issues though.