Does Solar trump Wind Generators these days?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by tinkrman69

Well when I'm under sail My boat heels. the panel is no longer horizontal. I put a 210 watt panel on the davits and add 4 degrees to the weather helm @ 60 deg to a 15 knot wind I put a wind gene on the mizzen and didn't register any change in the weather helm, in the same conditions.

Where are you putting a "6 foot diameter" wind genn.? The biggest I've seen is 50 inches. And no it's not the same as a disc.

If the solar is mounted on a bimini, then there is no windage difference. A catamaran doesn't heel. Your experiences may not represent many others and cannot be stated as fact.

The swept disk of the blade area is the drag presentation to the wind - same as for propellers in the water. 6' was a guess for a high-output windgen.

Mark

[a64pilot]

I just bought a few panels a week or so ago. I found real good prices for them online, but when I went to buy them the shipping price was $300. Shipping price was the same for 1 or 3 panels. Took me off guard, but when you think about it, your shipping a large piece of glass, maybe $300 isn't really that bad when you think about it.
So I thought, why not try local, I know the price would be higher and tax, but no shipping, right?
Found a place in Pensacola that did large commercial installs mostly and had several left over panels. I bought three Canadian Solar 250W panels and two Mage 250W panels for 50C a Watt tax included.
Might pay to call around local, maybe you'll find a Commercial installer with left over panels from a large install.


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[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

SolarBlvd sells 230 watt panels for $1,375.00 for 10. That's 59 cents/watt.

If you want to buy a single panel, it's $147.50. That's 64 cents/watt.

They're out of stock today, but they have them probably 3 weeks out of the month.

Right now, they have the 250w panels for $2415.00 for 10. That's 96.6 cents/watt. I prefer the 230 watt panels.

A while back, I bought 14 Sharp 208w panels for 75 cents/watt.

Solarblvd.com has been my "go to" place for our home's panels and grid intertie.
Our boat has one of their 120's, and a couple of Aurinco 100's.
To get a bit of perspective of how much solar has come down in price, a 120 watt panel on solarblvd.com which now sells for $136 was purchasted by me for the boat about 5 years ago (from solarblvd) for $300.

I don't regret my purchase one bit. Lots of "ahh" at anchor from full batteries with NO noise of engine or (thankfully) wind generator.
Having had a WG on a previous boat, nevermore !!

Panel maintenance?
Nope, except to slosh off the occasional bird poop or springtime pollen.

Oh, and Lithium cell battery helps a LOT. (duh!)

[SV THIRD DAY]

The first thing I've learned now from 7 years of full time living aboard (4 out cruising) and 3 now on a mooring is that you just can't have too much power. We started out with 260W of solar, no wind, and a 100A alternator.

Then over time and frustration, we have slowly upgraded to 1300W of solar, a KISS wind gen, Honda 2000, a 400AH LiFePO4 battery bank, and if I could figure out how to do it I'd have a small pebble nuclear reactor aboard to quell the never ending quest for power. Could we conserve...can anyone? Of course...but then that would make cruising and living aboard more like camping to us and my wife and kids would be out meeting with a real estate agent today looking to move ashore.

I tell folks to put every W of solar you can on your boat first, then if you have room for the mount and budget left in the cruising kitty, sure...go for a quality wind generator if your cruising destination has a track record of good winds. [[And remember in full disclosure, I'm the owner/manufacturer of the KISS wind gen]]. Now once you make that wind generator call, don't waste your time with a trickle charger...you want as many Amps as you can get and that $500 savings in a wind generator just isn't worth it in the lost power you could have had between a low output and high output unit. Modern wind gens are all mostly quiet these days...it's the old school AirX screamers that give the industry a bad reputation, but the noise issue is pretty much gone these days.

Wind power is very seasonal for us. During the summer, it just sits there laughing at me for all the work it took to install it up on my mizzen mast, no turning...no power....just another blob of shade on my solar panels. But in the winter and especially spring when it blows 25-30kts every day, even on full cloudy days my batteries get topped off from the wind gen. Now sure without it I could just fire up the Honda 2000 (or the 8K diesel) but it's about the convenience of getting that "free power" without burning petrol.

The second thing I've learned is that anyone who tells you there is a "Right Answer" to the "How should I outfit my boat questions" on a cruising chat room is either:
A) a salesman hyping his product
B) an armchair cruiser who has never been out cruising yet.
Or
C) the dock know-it-all guy that made all the right gear decisions for his boat and has to share with you the one right way to do it because his wife won't listen to him drone on anymore about it.

When I give seminars at boat shows, I tell people, (after declaring that I'm a self described cruising bozo) is that you have to answer an important questions: "What Type of Cruiser are you":

Are you the Marina Queen hopping from Marina shore power to Marina shore power? (no solar or wind needed here)

Are you the 365day/yr anchor out guy that thinks he will be arrested for that 1975 warrant if he lands his boat at a dock?
(better set up to be independent from dock power in every way you can)

Are you the Glamor/Glitz boat with all the new and latest gear?
(plan on waiting for repair parts to ship down if you can't deal with your wind instrument being off by 4-degs and 2kts)

Or
Are you the normal cruiser, that doesn't go on a OCD fit over what gear the boat is outfitted with as long as you can get out there before the world melts down or you die from cancer?
(in this case, just go and figure it all out yourself** See Note)

Answering these questions HONESTLY for yourself and not based on how your dock neighbor or yacht club buddies tell you is Muy Importante to a successful cruise.

A wind generator isn't a "Must have" item like an espresso machine or soda stream but if you have room and budget on your boat then I've never seen anyone take one off their boat and sell it because it's just one more way to quench that never ending need for more power!


**Note:
The best way to know what works out cruising for YOU is to GO Cruising and find out! This isn't a flippant smart ass answer, ok well it is a little, but it's still true. Go for a year without all the "stuff" and then figure out what you really want and need for YOURSELF. Then buy and install it. This approach is a little unconventional in a world that preaches you have to have everything ready the day you leave the dock (the boat show lie) but it can also get you out cruising sooner and save you literally thousands of dollars!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by tinkrman69

quote
How are you calculating windage for a solar panel lying flat on a bimini or arch? Seems that would be much less windage than a 6' disk always vertical to the wind.

Output would depend on the specific windgen and solar comparisons - let alone the sun/wind expectations for any specific area.

Mark

Well when I'm under sail My boat heels. the panel is no longer horizontal. I put a 210 watt panel on the davits and add 4 degrees to the weather helm @ 60 deg to a 15 knot wind I put a wind gene on the mizzen and didn't register any change in the weather helm, in the same conditions.

Where are you putting a "6 foot diameter" wind genn.? The biggest I've seen is 50 inches. And no it's not the same as a disc.

Our panels are flat mounted on the hard dodger so the only additional windage would be from a wind Genny and all associated mounting structure ( considering adding one)

[Wild Bird]

Like all things it is never as simple as one is better than the other. We have 460w of solar and a Duogen. The Duogen is quite high output for a wind generator but compared to the solar the solar wins. I know this as I monitor the performance of both. The solar will put in 14-26 amps for most of the day when the sun is shining. The Duogen in wind mode will average an amp or two unless we are getting greater than 15 kts of wind then we get 6 or 7 amps. In water mode we get 10 amps if we can do 6 or 7 knots boat speed.
All this is useful but the fundamental thing is to reduce your power needs. There is no reason why all lighting is not LED on boats these days. This will vastly reduce the lighting load. American boats seem to have huge refrigeration power requirements. Build a good top loading fridge/freezer and this can be managed with a lot less power. Install a large battery bank. This will keep you out of the deep cycle routine and preserve battery life. It will also get you through periods when something fails like the engine alternator or solar regulator or wind turbine or generator. Install an engine alternator smart regulator. Every little helps but reliability and resilience improve with diverse systems and minimal system interaction.


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[SailorGerry]

Thanks everyone for all the great inputs & perspectives! To quote KIWI, "Many great answers; I can't find a wrong one, just different horses for different courses."
I really appreciate your time and the thoughtfulness of your responses...this forum rocks! You gave me exactly what I was looking for!
I'll be hanging out in La Paz & the Sea of Cortez this Winter and Spring - stop by and I'll have a COLD drink for you!
Gerry

[nigel1]

For those who are contemplating both wind and solar charging systems, but are concerned about the maintenance issues which come with a wind generator, you should bear in mind that there is no need to run the wind generator all the time.

If you have plenty of sunlight, and no or little shading issues, the wind geny can be secured. If it's not turning, then it's not wearing seals and bearings.

I find that when I'm on the boat, and during the summer, the wind geny is used for less than 50% of the time, and this should greatly increase the life of the seals and bearings.

One other point, unrelated, but for those who are thinking of installing a D400 generator.
The maker suggests installing a "brake" switch. The sole purpose of the switch is to slow the turbine and make it easier to stop. I originally fitted on one of these, but found I never used it, its just as easy to turn the turbine off the wind and wait for the blades to slow.

As far as I can see, the switch just adds more connections, and more potential for voltage drop, plus, on one occasion, the switch was inadvertently set to "brake". Fortunately it was noted fairly quickly.

[mackrobertson]

One issue I did not see mentioned is the popularity of solar panels to thieves. If you plan to cruise, especially to remote locations, you need to be aware that solar panels are a huge target for thieves. The technology is commonplace and easy to hook up to their 12 volt TV's. (They are being stolen out of the vineyards in CA, here in the US.)

A wind gen is out of reach and can charge all night.

Been there, done that.

[colemj]

It would be odd reasoning to forgo solar because of theft potential. Using that reasoning, one would not have an outboard or a computer or most other stuff we typically have. After all, if a thief has time to climb on top of my hardtop, unbolt the 14 bolts holding each panel on, get them off of the hardtop and get away with them, then they have plenty of time to simply break into the boat and steal everything else.

Mark

[Kenomac]

I've been here all day with the neighbor's Superwind 350 twirling within 30ft. I couldn't hear it at all.

The thing is very quiet. You wouldn't even know it was spinning if you didn't look at it. Very surprising. Makes me want to rethink how I feel towards wind power.

[mackrobertson]

You assume they are going to remove the bolts to get them off??? HA HA Also, they have no need of what you have inside your boat. They live in the mangroves on stilt houses and run in dugout canoes with 15 hp Yamahas. Go to town shopping for a couple of hours and they are gone when you come back! You have not experienced the mindset of the indigenous native of Central America, thus you cannot understand it.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I've been here all day with the neighbor's Superwind 350 twirling within 30ft. I couldn't hear it at all.

The thing is very quiet. You wouldn't even know it was spinning if you didn't look at it. Very surprising. Makes me want to rethink how I feel towards wind power.

Here, I'll help clarify your mind.

$2400 PLUS SHIPPING for the wind genny.
$800 PLUS SHIPPING for the pole kit.


I intentionally used caps on the shipping part, who knows how much that raping is gonna hurt. As if $3200 wasn't enough to make the sphincter slam shut.

Even if I spent $700 ea for the most expensive MPPT controllers, I could get a HELL of a lot more power than 350 measly watts for $3200...

plus shipping.

Even at $2/watt for high end panels, I could buy an 80 amp controller for $700, have $2500 left over and buy 1250 watts of solar panels with that. Yes, I know the sun doesn't shine at night, but the wind doesn't always blow, especially if you like to anchor in quiet inlets.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I could buy an 80 amp controller for $700, have $2500 left over and buy 1250 watts of solar panels with that.

There is this little problem called SPACE....it's much easier to type 1250W of solar than for many boats to find room for it. My aircraft carrier has 1300W but that's a lot of surface area.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Here, I'll help clarify your mind.

$2400 PLUS SHIPPING for the wind genny.
$800 PLUS SHIPPING for the pole kit.


I intentionally used caps on the shipping part, who knows how much that raping is gonna hurt. As if $3200 wasn't enough to make the sphincter slam shut.

Even if I spent $700 ea for the most expensive MPPT controllers, I could get a HELL of a lot more power than 350 measly watts for $3200...

plus shipping.

Even at $2/watt for high end panels, I could buy an 80 amp controller for $700, have $2500 left over and buy 1250 watts of solar panels with that. Yes, I know the sun doesn't shine at night, but the wind doesn't always blow, especially if you like to anchor in quiet inlets.

You seem to have missed a very important part of the original post ( don't worry most of the ppl posting have missed it as well ) he already has the wind generator and wanted to know if it was worth mounting and the short answer is yes but the long answer is also yes mount it.